HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutesPROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL
CITY OF OSHKOSH, WISCONSIN
OlHKOIH
ON THE WATER
REGULAR MEETING held Tuesday, June 23, 2009 at 6:00 p.m. in the Council Chambers, City
Hall.
Mayor Esslinger presided.
PRESENT: Council Members Harold Buchholz, Tony Palmeri, Jessica King, Bob Poeschl, Burk
Tower, Dennis McHugh and Mayor Esslinger
ALSO PRESENT: Mark Rohloff, City Manager, Pamela Ubrig, City Clerk, Lynn Lorenson, City
Attorney, and Dave Patek, Director of Public Works
Council Member Buchholz read the Invocation.
Mr. Rohloff introduced Brad Rokus the Water Filtration Plant superintendent.
2008 AUDIT PRESENTATION (SCHENCK BUSINESS SOLUTIONS)
Ron Widell, Certified Public Accountant that performed the 2008 audit for the City, stated that
the financial position was listed as fairly clean and that was were municipalities wanted to be.
He explained what each section of the report entailed. He stated that the City staff was
organized and cooperative.
Council Member Buchholz questioned the meaning of the AA3 rating and how it compared to
other Cities.
Mr. Widell stated that the higher the rating allowed for lower interest when borrowing.
Mr. Rohloff explained that AA rating included three different levels; AA1, AA2 and AA3. He
stated that AA1 was the highest and AA3 was common for a community the size of Oshkosh.
He explained that it was rated on the City's ability to repay debt. He stated that the City was at
60% capacity for borrowing funds.
Council Member Buchholz questioned why there was no suggestions given in the audit as to
how the City could improve or areas of concern.
Mr. Widell stated that the City had no major concerns or issues.
Council Member Buchholz questioned the employment benefit plan and if it was typical to be
funded by employers and not by the employee.
Mr. Widell explained that it varied among cities. He stated that most municipalities were
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employee funded and had a subsidy rate.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned the City's stability due to the decline in building permits
since 2003.
Mr. Widell stated that the economical impact was hit world wide and did not pertain only to the
City.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that a five year decline seemed like a massive amount.
Mr. Widell stated that it did seem massive; however, he had no data to compare to.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that audits as a whole seemed to provide more positives then
what was reality.
Mr. Widell explained that audits were a historical document and that the budget numbers were
stable and consistent from year to year.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that the estimated growth for the City was 450 people per year
and to be over 75,000 in the year 2025. He stated that from 2007 to 2008 the City grew by 110
persons. He questioned if the population growth was reason for concern regarding the
economy of the region.
Mr. Widell explained that it would depend upon reports from other areas.
Mr. Rohloff explained that the growth was expected to slow down due to the economy. He
stated that in the late 1990's and early 2000's it had been growing by approximately 400
people per year.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned if the population number included UWO students.
Mr. Rohloff stated that it included the college students as well as the prisoners.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that the manufacturing number was inflated.
Mr. Rohloff explained that the numbers were statistical information provided from the Chamber
and from the Work Force Development.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri encouraged the City Manager to gather more accurate information. He
explained that the manufacturing market had taken a hit since 1998 and yet the analysis
showed a growth in 2008. He stated that the inflation to manufacturing was hard to believe
since the Library laid off 7 full -time employees.
Mayor Esslinger questioned a statement that had been made implying that if funds from the
general funds were used it would affect the bond rating.
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Peggy Steeno, Finance Director, explained that there were different reasons for bond ratings to
change depending upon the use for the funds. She stated that she had contacted the bond
rating company and a one -time use would not affect the rating. She explained that if there was
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
a continual use of general funds for operations that would not be acceptable. She stated that
the City needed a fund balance policy.
Mayor Esslinger questioned how many cents on the dollar the City paid off per year for debt.
Mrs. Steeno stated that the City had been paying off as much as what was borrowed prior to
the issues of the storm water.
Council Member Buchholz questioned the increase in 2007 and the decrease in 2008 for the
general fund balance.
Mrs. Steeno explained that in 2007 there had been funds that were not used and in 2008 there
was a shortage of $327,000 that was used for the Convention Centre.
Council Member Buchholz urged the City Manager to put forth more effort for accurate
information.
Mr. Rohloff stated that the information was provided from other sources and he had not been
aware of inaccuracies. He stated that the official information was gathered from the employers.
PUBLIC HEARINGS
Resolution 09 -226 Approve Annual City License O'Brian's, 686 N. Main Street
MOTION: ADOPT (Palmeri; second, McHugh)
CARRIED: Ayes (5) Buchholz, King, Poeschl, McHugh, Mayor Esslinger;
Noes (2) Palmeri, Tower
Mayor Esslinger explained that the purpose of the meeting was to conduct a hearing per
Section 125.12 of the Wisconsin Statutes on the decision to renew or not renew the license of
Lewtag, LLC, Agent James Ostertag for the property commonly known as O'Brian's for
premises located at 686 North Main Street. He stated that the procedure for the hearing was as
follows; the Police Chief would present evidence in support of his determination to recommend
that the Council not renew the license for Lewtag, LLC. He stated that any witnesses who were
presenting evidence to the Council would be sworn in by the City Clerk and the representative
of the licensee would be allowed to question the Chief and /or any witnesses that testify. He
explained that the Council would then be given the opportunity to ask any questions clarifying
any information that has been presented and the representative of the licensee will then be
given an opportunity to present any evidence that he /she wishes the Council to consider in
relation to the decision whether or not to renew the license. He stated that the licensee or any
witnesses that he /she wishes to give testimony before the Council on this issue would be
sworn by the City Clerk. He explained that after the licensee had been given the opportunity to
present any information he /she wishes the Council to consider, the Chief and /or his
representative would be allowed to ask questions of those witnesses and Council Members
would then be permitted to ask questions. He explained that thereafter, the Chief and /or his
representative and the Licensee would be given a final opportunity to make a statement to the
Council. He stated that the hearing was then closed and the issue would be discussed and
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
voted on by the Council and the Council would base its decisions only on the evidence it heard
at the hearing.
Introduction of Attorneys: Tony Renning from Davis and Kuelthau on behalf of the Chief of
Police; Dan Posanski, Dempsey Law Firm representing the license holder James Ostertag from
Lewtag, LLC.
Attorney Posanski stated that Mr. Ostertag did not have reasonable notice for response. He
explained that state law required a three day notice and the first day served did not count. He
stated that the testimony of Chief Greuel should not be heard by the Council.
Mayor Esslinger questioned if it was Attorney Posanski's wish for a layover.
Attorney Posanski stated that he was not sure that was possible.
Ms. Lorenson explained that the 3 to10 days notice was regarding a suspension and the
certificate of service was on June 18
Attorney Renning explained that the State Statute 125 provided certain requirement for
providing notice, related to suspension or revocation
Mayor Esslinger questioned if it was Attorney Renning's legal opinion to proceed with the
hearing.
Attorney Renning stated that he would proceed with the hearing.
Ms. Lorenson stated that Attorney Posanski was implying that the City had not provided
enough notice for due process. She stated that another option would be to reschedule the
hearing which would require a special meeting as the license expired prior to the next Council
date.
The City Clerk swore in Chief Greuel.
Attorney Renning stated that the Statute allowed Council to renew or not to renew the license.
He explained that one point for non renewal was the licensee kept and maintained a
disorderly, indecent or improper house. He stated that the basis for Chief Greuel's
recommendation was the high percentage of call volume and the violations discovered at the
premises on March 26, 2009 by the Oshkosh Police Department and the Department of
Revenue.
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Attorney Renning questioned if it was an accurate statement that Chief Greuel recommended
non renewal of the license. Chief Greuel stated that it was his recommendation.
Attorney Renning questioned if O'Brian's was aware of Chief Greuel's decision. Chief Greuel
stated that that was correct.
Attorney Renning explained that the basis for the decision was due to the high volume of calls
and if Chief Greuel would explain those calls.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Chief Greuel provided documents regarding the number of calls or incidents and a summary of
the types of calls. He stated that from July 1, 2008 through June 22, 2009 there had been 92
calls for service. He explained that the color coding was how the incidents were reported; 12%
from the staff at O'Brian's; 27% were officer observed and 61 were reported by a third party.
He stated that not all incidents had been included and that officers described the business as a
problem due to significant injuries as well as other issues that had happened at the
establishment. He explained that officers in plainclothes as well as in uniform had visited and
reviewed the issues that happened at O'Brian's. He explained that there had been 71 alcohol
violations where Mr. Ostertag was selling a lesser brand of alcohol for the higher brand cost by
refilling bottles. He explained that alcohol and cigarettes were not being purchased from
distributers but from local retail. He explained that there were illegal gambling machines and
lottery tickets that were confiscated. He stated that in 2008 there had been 138 incidents
relating to alcohol and battery complaints. He stated that there had been an increase in calls
and a pattern that patrons were being over served. He stated that there had been two arrests
for serving underage and injuries from fights. He explained that prior to the meeting in
November there had been a number of contacts with the people running the establishment and
with Mr. Ostertag and his son to identify issues of concern and means to mitigate those issues.
He explained that he had a meeting with Mr. Ostertag regarding the abatement plan. He
explained that the bartenders and the bouncers were drinking and intoxicated themselves
which created an environment of ignorance as to what was going on. He stated that drink
specials were, all you could drink for $25 or $30 which led to over serving. He stated that the
music was aggressive and disturbing. He explained that problem people in the community had
a tendency to migrate to that tavern. He explained that officers were met with lack of
cooperation and Mr. Ostertag did not want to implement strategies that had been suggested.
He explained that from the first meeting in November to the formal meeting two measures were
taken; a scanning machine had been purchased and plastic glasses were being used. He
stated that it had been suggested to increase the bouncers to four and monitor all facilities
including the parking lot. He explained that the officers were thereto help and would train the
staff how to check for false IDs and how to tell when patrons were intoxicated. He stated that a
request to change the type of music and turn the volume down was made. He explained that
Oshkosh Police Department would continue to monitor both in uniform and plain clothes with a
zero tolerance for violating codes and consequence for not responding would lead to
revocation or non renewal of license. He stated that the police department had an obligation
for public safety and he was confident that the issues would not change. He explained that the
Police Department had met the burden of showing disorderly behavior and that the obligation
of a licensee had not been met.
Attorney Renning questioned why O'Brian's and not other taverns with a higher number of calls
for incidences.
Chief Greuel explained that other taverns were in various stages of an abatement process, two
taverns were in an active abatement process. He stated that Molly's had shown a level of
cooperation and success and the police would continue to visit. He stated that the Rail was in
an active abatement policy since January and had a formal abatement meeting scheduled. He
stated that the Rail had lighting installed in the parking lot at the request of the police
department.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Attorney Posanski questioned if there was written documentation regarding the loss of license
if Mr. Ostertag did not follow through the process presented to him.
Chief Greuel stated that he submitted papers regarding the consequence at the December 11
meeting.
Attorney Posanski questioned if there had been anything else in writing regarding the
consequences. Chief Greuel stated nothing other than what was served on June 18
Attorney Posanski questioned why nothing more was provided to relate to due process.
Chief Greuel explained that Mr. Ostertag was aware based on the abatement meeting and that
he had been adequately advised.
Attorney Posanski stated that Council should not consider the criminal charges from March as
there was no evidence and they were pending allegations. He questioned how often Chief
Greuel was on the premises of O'Brian's. Chief Greuel stated that he was never at the
establishment.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the officers were present for testimony. Chief Greuel stated
that they were not.
Attorney Posanski questioned if Chief Greuel had based his testimony upon what the officers
had relayed to him. Chief Greuel stated that that was correct, in addition to the 100 plus
reports.
Attorney Posanski explained that he had an open records request and had requested Chief
Greuel to flag the twelve most important incidents. He stated that one report was regarding a
patron outside of O'Brian's.
Chief Greuel explained that intoxicated persons had been seen leaving O'Brian's.
Attorney Posanski questioned if all of the alcohol was consumed at O'Brian's and or at another
tavern. Chief Greuel stated that he could not be sure.
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Attorney Posanski questioned if an employee called police for help when there was a fight in
the bar. Chief Greuel stated that was correct.
Attorney Posanski stated that another of the twelve important incidents was a man passed out
in the parking lot and questioned if that was correct. Chief Greuel explained that it was on Mr.
Ostertag's property.
Attorney Posanski questioned if another was an altercation in the parking lot. Chief Greuel
stated that was correct.
Attorney Posanski explained that another incident was a patron with an alleged gun and
questioned if there was a gun. Chief Greuel stated that there was no gun.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Attorney Posanski explained that a patron being slapped was reported from a residence and
no witness in the bar to the slapping and questioned if that was correct. Chief Greuel stated
that that was correct.
Attorney Posanski explained that another incident was of a drink being thrown in the face and
two girls fighting. Chief Greuel stated that was correct.
Attorney Posanski explained that an employee of Mr. Ostertag had called the police when a
woman that was cut off refused to leave the premises and became disorderly. He questioned if
there was a warrant for that patron. Chief Greuel stated that was correct and that was a
successful instant and there was a warrant for that individual.
Attorney Posanski explained that a male had brought another male to O'Brian's after he was
found throwing up and an employee called the police for assistance. Chief Greuel stated that
was correct although there was more to the story than that.
Attorney Posanski stated that these were listed as the 12 most important incidences provided.
Chief Greuel clarified the statement by stating that these were 12 among 92. He explained that
these were snapshots of the types of incidents that occurred.
Attorney Posanski questioned if there were reports of patrons falling off of their stools. Chief
Greuel stated that he needed to read the reports. He explained that those incidents were
observations that were made by officers.
Attorney Posanski questioned if breathalyzers were given to patrons that appeared to be over
served. Chief Greuel stated that no breathalyzers had been given.
Attorney Posanski questioned how the officers knew the patrons were intoxicated. Chief
Greuel explained that based on the officers training and experience they were able to identify
patrons that were over served and intoxicated. He explained that there was not a request for a
complete listing of incidences, a CAD report was requested and that's what was provided.
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Attorney Posanski stated that he had requested an open records request and that he did not
know what a CAD report was. He explained that with a two -day notice to represent his client
he had requested all records be provided and was provided with the twelve most important
incidents, most of them occurred outside the premises.
Chief Greuel explained that the information was not accurate of what was requested today. He
stated that a request for copies of reports was made and he was provided with all of the
documents presented before Council.
Attorney Posanski questioned how many underage citations had been issued at O'Brian's.
Chief Greuel stated that there were two citations given.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the number of 300 to 400 underage citations given at Country
USA was correct. Chief Greuel explained that his office was not involved with those arrests.
He stated that the police department was involved with traffic control.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Attorney Posanski questioned if the City issued them a liquor license. Chief Greuel stated that
they did not have the authority do so.
Attorney Posanski stated that Wingers had 21 arrests for underage. Chief Greuel stated that
they were on the list of abatement facilities.
Attorney Posanski questioned if it was the patrons or the violations that the Chief did not agree
with. Chief Greuel explained that it was not a matter of what he liked; it was an issue of
disorderly behavior and circumstances that required numerous incident reports. He stated that
it had nothing to do with his personal feelings.
Attorney Posanski questioned if Chief Greuel had a problem with the business plan and why.
Chief Greuel explained that the business plan was flawed due to the issues outlined.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the business plan was flawed due to drinking. Chief Greuel
stated that that was not what was stated.
Attorney Posanski stated that earlier Chief Greuel had stated that there were no dress codes
posted or enforced. Chief Greuel explained that initially it was the police departments'
recommendation to develop a dress code and to enforce it. He stated that they were aware of
a dress code and that officers said the signage was visible.
Attorney Posanski questioned if there were other taverns within the City that had a dress code.
Chief Greuel stated that he did not frequent taverns; however, the officers would know.
Attorney Posanski stated that it was odd patrons were not allowed to wear a flat brimmed hat.
He questioned if Chief Greuel thought it was odd. Chief Greuel stated that it depended upon
the observation of the cliental. He explained that there was recognition of clothing that was
inappropriate.
Attorney Posanski questioned if Chief Greuel had knowledge that Mr. Ostertag had
implemented procedures to help his business. Chief Greuel stated that there had been no
reduction in calls.
Attorney Posanski questioned if there was a point system or benchmarks of some kind or if it
was subjective determination. Chief Greuel stated that there was no point system. He
explained that there were alternate options under the abatement ordinance.
Attorney Posanski stated that he had spoken with the Tavern League and they stated that most
municipalities had a point system program. Chief Greuel stated that he was not surprised. He
explained that at a Chief of Police conference half of the Chiefs had a point system.
Attorney Posanski explained that it was unfair to Mr. Ostertag to know how well he was doing if
there was nothing presented to him to gauge by. Chief Greuel explained that there had been
frequent interaction with Mr. Ostertag and that there had been positive feedback provided and
notations of what was not working.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Attorney Posanski questioned if there had been any action taken against Wal -Mart due to the
volume of high calls there. Chief Greuel stated that there was nothing formally taken. He
explained that those incidents were good work of the loss prevention person regarding retail
theft. He stated that the police department had strong working relationship with them.
Attorney Posanski questioned action against Pick N Save due to 69 calls reported. Chief
Greuel stated that nothing formal as most of those calls were with the loss prevention person
dealing with retail theft.
Attorney Posanski questioned if Mr. Ostertag was treated fairly since his calls were less than
those two businesses. Chief Greuel stated that it was comparing apples to oranges. He
explained that there were no calls for significant injuries or disorderly behavior that came
directly from the responsibility of the premises.
Attorney Posanski questioned if there were any recordings or officers to testify that the music
was offensive. Chief Greuel stated that there was not.
Attorney Posanski questioned if any drug use was listed in the twelve most important
incidences. Chief Greuel stated that they were not of the 12 highlighted incidents list in exhibit
one.
Attorney Posanski questioned if they were not important enough for the 12 most important ones
that were provided. Chief Greuel stated that they were not part of the ones highlighted and
flagged.
Attorney Posanski questioned the type of clientele at O'Brian's and if it was typical of other
taverns. Chief Greuel stated that he could not make that comparison. He explained that the
four or five taverns within that quarter of a block did not have the types of problems that
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O'Brian's had. He stated that other businesses were disturbed by the activity and that there
needed to be a presence of officers.
Council Member McHugh stated that the neighborhood had problems and that the people
would go to another tavern if O'Brian's license was not renewed.
Chief Greuel stated that he would not be able to make that judgment. He explained that the
other taverns were not experiencing the same problems. He stated that it was the environment
and atmosphere inside that instigated problems. He explained that Oshkosh was a safe city
and that he was proud of the high percentage rate of arrests and the accountability rate.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned the demeanor of the owner regarding the abatement
process. Chief Greuel explained that at the November meeting they were not cooperative and
at the second meeting he was left with the judgment that nothing would change.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned why there was not a request for revocation of the license.
Chief Greuel explained that he wanted to allow an opportunity to be successful.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned if the conclusion was that the problems were increasing and
not decreasing. Chief Greuel stated that that was correct.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that a revocation of the license should have been requested
rather than a non renewal. Chief Greuel explained that it was appropriate to wait due to the
time period after the inspection and the review in late April.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that the January 25, 2009 incident regarding the bouncer fight,
sounded as if the bouncer was trying to control the situation. Chief Greuel explained that there
was an attempt to refuse entry; however, the video relayed the first strike was initiated by the
bouncer with a felony charge.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned if there was evidence of any DUI's that resulted from being
served at O'Brian's. Chief Greuel explained that it was not part of the information gathered.
Council Member McHugh questioned if the third party calls were duplicated due to different
people calling in the same incident. Chief Greuel stated that the incidents were not inflated
due to the number of calls as each incident was listed with one call regardless of how many
calls had come in.
Council Member King questioned if the summary was taken from the long form or the short
form. Chief Greuel explained that not all were verbatim, that it was a brief summary.
Council Member King questioned if an acknowledgment of exhibit four was signed. Chief
Greuel stated that there was nothing signed.
Council Member Poeschl questioned calls relating to the abatement process. Chief Greuel
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stated that there had been interaction with offers prior to the November meeting and the
abatement became formal in December.
Council Member Poeschl questioned if there were problems in the neighborhood would there
be as much leniency. Chief Greuel stated that it depended on the problem or the monthly
reports that would help to identify issues earlier.
Council Member Poeschl questioned if there was communication between the police officers
and the owners after the December 11 meeting. Chief Greuel stated that there had been
communication as the police had offered assistance and there was regular interaction between
officers and the owners.
Council Member King questioned who prepared the document and sent it to Mr. Ostertag.
Chief Greuel stated that he had created the document and it was hand delivered.
Mayor Esslinger questioned the determination as to who was responsible for altercations and if
O'Brian's did a good job informing the police department of problems. Chief Greuel explained
that the employees did not do a good job of informing the police department and that the
determination as to the responsibility would be stated after investigating if the patron had been
over served and if that contributed to the issue.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Mayor Esslinger questioned if some incidents showed the staff tried to break up fights. Chief
Greuel stated that at times they showed interest and other times they were not interested.
Mayor Esslinger stated that since December 11 O'Brian's had an average of four incidents
per month and questioned if that was a high number of calls. Chief Greuel stated that the
number was a high number of calls. He explained that O'Brian's was number one on the list of
calls and the other five taverns that were being watched did not come close to that many calls.
Mayor Esslinger questioned if the Chief would be allowed to revoke the license at anytime if
granted tonight. Chief Greuel stated that he would be allowed.
Ms. Lorenson explained that if granted tonight the Chief would be allowed to recommend
revocation or non renewal with additional basis for his decision.
Mayor Esslinger questioned the additional basis. Ms. Lorenson explained that there needed to
be additional basis, more than what was provided tonight for change of opinion. She stated
that the license, if granted tonight, would be from July 1, 2009 to June 30, 2010.
Chief Greuel explained that additional basis would be the continuation of call for service and
additional victimization.
Council Member Buchholz questioned the 59 occurrences and if they were different from the
22. Chief Greuel explained that there had been 59 incidents in 2009 and more than 22 since
the abatement process as all had not been reported.
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Council Member King questioned what disposition code one and two were. Chief Greuel
explained that it was used internally to see how the code was cleared.
Attorney Renning explained that Chief Greuel was the records custodian for the officers and
that he was respectful to Council not to swear in each officer and have them provide testimony.
The City Clerk swore in Mr. Ostertag.
Attorney Posanski explained that Mr. Ostertag had little notice to prepare for this case, as he
received the notice to attend the meeting two days prior to this evening. He stated that he had
not seen evidence to support Chief Greuel's suggestion to not renew the license. He
explained that if there was no record of incidents of patrons falling off of stools then it was
speculation and should not be used to determine if the license should be renewed or not. He
questioned
how long the business of Lewtag LLC had existed and if he was the sole owner. Mr. Ostertag
stated that he had been in business for 6.5 years and he was the sole owner.
Attorney Posanski questioned the location of the establishment and if there were other bars
within that area and how many. Mr. Ostertag stated that the location of the bar was on the
corner of Main Street and Irving Avenue. He stated that there are 8 other bars within a block
from him.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Attorney Posanski questioned the square footage of the bar. Mr. Ostertag stated that it was
6,000 square feet.
Attorney Posanski questioned if his establishment was larger or smaller compared to the other
bars. He questioned if he was one of the largest bars in the area. Mr. Ostertag stated that it
was larger and that he was one of the largest bars.
Attorney Posanski questioned if he recalled the abatement plan and if Chief Greuel had been
present all of the meetings. Mr. Ostertag stated that he did recall the meeting regarding the
abatement plan. He explained that to his knowledge he was not; however, he could not recall
for sure.
Attorney Posanski questioned if he recollected the abatement plan. Mr. Ostertag stated that he
had recalled the abatement plan from the November meeting.
Attorney Posanski questioned if he was receptive to the abatement plan. Mr. Ostertag
explained that he would do what he could to work the police.
Attorney Posanski questioned what things he had done in response to the abatement plan.
Mr. Ostertag explained that all bartenders needed to be licensed, bouncers were on duty, and
added more cameras.
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Attorney Posanski questioned if the camera were expensive. Mr. Ostertag stated that the cost
was $2,000 for each unit and since the meeting the ones he added were a couple of colored
cameras.
Attorney Posanski stated that cameras were added by the door at the request of the Police
Chief for identification reasons. Mr. Ostertag stated that that was correct.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the bouncers carried lasers. Mr. Ostertag explained that the
bouncers and the bartenders had one.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the numbers of bouncers on duty had changed since
November of 2008. Mr. Ostertag stated that he had more bouncers on duty and some on
stand -by.
Attorney Posanski questioned what on -call bouncers had meant. Mr. Ostertag explained that
if it got busier they would call in additional bouncers.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the types of music was changed due to the request from the
Chief. Mr. Ostertag stated that they agreed not to play hard rap.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the purchase of a scanning machine was due to a request
from the Chief. Mr. Ostertag stated that the scanning machine was purchased prior to the
request. He stated that the machine cost $2,000 and would scan identification cards and alert
if it was false or invalid. He explained that it helped the police to identify a person with a false
ID. He stated that he has a sign that reads; no out of state IDs.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Attorney Posanski questioned if there were other signs at the door and what they pertained to.
Mr. Ostertag explained that he posted ordinances regarding public drinking and public
urination.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the Chief had requested a change be made to the drink
specials and the business plan and if he had made the changes. Mr. Ostertag explained that
rather than an all you can drink special, he went to a rail and tap beer happy hour.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the drink specials were consistent with other bars in the City.
Mr. Ostertag stated that he tried to compete with others.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the employees were trained regarding law issues. Mr.
Ostertag explained that he made a policy that the bartenders and bouncers were not allowed to
drink.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the parking lot was the parking lot for the 8 bars within that
area. Mr. Ostertag stated that it was one of the bigger lots in the area.
Attorney Posanski questioned if patrons that went to other establishments parked in his lot.
Mr. Ostertag explained that his parking lot would be full and have one patron in his
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establishment.
Attorney Posanski questioned if incidents could happen from patrons drinking at other bars.
Mr. Ostertag stated that it happened.
Attorney Posanski questioned if there was a loan on the property. Mr. Ostertag stated that was
a loan.
Attorney Posanski questioned if personal assets were collateral for that loan. Mr. Ostertag
stated that his personal assets were held as collateral.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the denial of the liquor license would have an adverse effect
on him personally. Mr. Ostertag stated that it would.
Attorney Posanski questioned if he had another job. Mr. Ostertag stated he did not.
Attorney Posanski questioned the number of employees. Mr. Ostertag explained that he had
15 to 20 part -time employees.
Attorney Posanski questioned if his son was an employee and had a differentjob. Mr. Ostertag
explained his son was an employee and did not have another job.
Attorney Renning questioned if he received exhibit four, the notice regarding the consequence
for not following the abatement plan. Mr. Ostertag explained that he received it; however, he
did not read it thoroughly.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Attorney Renning questioned when it was implemented that all bartenders be required to have
a valid operator's license. Mr. Ostertag stated that it was implemented approximately four or
five months ago.
Attorney Renning stated that it was after the meeting with the Chief. Mr. Ostertag explained
that if they were not licensed, they were not held responsible.
Attorney Renning questioned if there were unlicensed bartenders currently working. Mr.
Ostertag stated no.
Attorney Renning questioned the number of bouncers employed. Mr. Ostertag explained that
he had a list of five to eight on a rotating call list.
Attorney Renning questioned how many on site during a particular evening. Mr. Ostertag
explained that on slow nights the bartenders were expected to check IDs and on busy nights
two bouncers and then others on stand -by if needed.
Attorney Renning questioned how bouncers were on duty during a particular night prior to the
14
meeting with the Chief. Mr. Ostertag explained that he started with one and increased it to two
or more if needed.
Attorney Renning questioned the training that was provided to the bouncers. Mr. Ostertag
explained that they had meetings regarding what was appropriate and inappropriate ways to
handle situations.
Attorney Renning questioned how many cameras were installed prior to the meeting with Chief
Greuel. Mr. Ostertag stated that he had fourteen cameras prior to the meeting.
Attorney Renning questioned Mr. Ostertag if there had been a time he was unable to provide a
tape for the police to view since the abatement. Mr. Ostertag stated that his cameras ran on an
eight -hour time frame. He explained that he could not provide the tape due to it had been
rewound. He explained that if an officer needed a video, they should put a notice on his door
and he would save the camera for them.
Attorney Renning questioned when the lasers had been implemented. Mr. Ostertag explained
that there had been microphones since the beginning. He stated that they had problems with
the lasers being stolen so they stopped using them for a while and had started to use them
recently.
Attorney Renning questioned if all identification cards except for out of state were scanned.
Mr. Ostertag explained that they try not to take out of state IDs and that all patrons have their
ID's scanned.
Attorney Renning questioned when the dress code had been implemented. Mr. Ostertag
explained that the dress code was updated continually. He stated that he had a dress code in
place since he opened the business.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Attorney Renning questioned the training that was provided to his employees and how long the
training had been implemented. Mr. Ostertag explained that all bartenders were licensed and
if there were no bouncers on duty, the bartender was responsible for checking minors and not
to serve patrons that were too intoxicated. He explained that he has meetings on a regular
basis with his employees.
Attorney Posanski questioned when he had received the notice of recommendation to not
renew the liquor license. Mr. Ostertag stated that it had been in his mailbox, without an
envelope and not addressed to anyone.
Attorney Posanski questioned if the document was personally handed to him. Mr. Ostertag
stated that it was not.
Attorney Posanski questioned if he had been aware prior to that notice that his liquor license
may not be granted for renewal. Mr. Ostertag stated that he was unaware that the license may
not be granted for renewal.
15
Mayor Esslinger questioned if Council Members had questions for Mr. Ostertag or his Attorney.
Council Member Buchholz questioned the inconsistency regarding what documents Mr.
Ostertag had or had not seen. He explained that Mr. Ostertag referred to an exhibit date
related to November and Council's exhibits were dated December.
Mr. Ostertag apologized for the error on the incorrect date he had been referring to. He stated
that it was the one he had in his possession.
Council Member Buchholz questioned if Attorney Posanski had not seen the three points until
June 18 Mr. Ostertag stated that it was the first time he had seen that, he did not recall
seeing it prior to this meeting.
Council Member Buchholz questioned when Mr. Ostertag took the abatement seriously that the
licensed may not be renewed. Mr. Ostertag stated that he took the abatement seriously at the
December 11 meeting.
Council Member Buchholz questioned what would Council expect to hear from the attorney if
the process was laid over for two weeks. Attorney Posanski stated that the allegations put
forth were tribunal. He stated that per the open request he had seen 12 instances.
Council Member Buchholz questioned Attorney Posanski if his time had been limited with his
client regarding due process. Attorney Posanski stated that the notice was left in Mr.
Ostertag's mail box and should have been hand delivered. He explained that two days to
prepare for a hearing was a short time.
Council Member Buchholz stated that since the December 11 abatement meeting the number
of incidents had not been reduced.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Attorney Posanski stated that the number of incidents were not violent. He explained that the
incidents could have been things that had happened outside, such as a flat tire or a fall. He
stated that he had found twelve situations over a course of a year that had happened. He
explained that Chief Greuel had stated that those instances were the most serious.
Council Member Buchholz questioned if Mr. Ostertag had worked towards the abatement
proposed by Chief Greuel. Mr. Ostertag explained that bar owners did not want violence in
their establishments. He stated that he would work with Chief Greuel if there was more that
could be done.
Council Member King questioned if the open records request was in writing and what time the
request was made. Attorney Posanski stated that the open records request was done verbally
through voice mail to Chief Greuel yesterday and he accommodated him in his office today.
He explained that Mr. Ostertag received the notice two days prior to Council and had to retain
16
his attorney for representation and then to gather information.
Council Member Tower questioned the amount of nights per week that Mr. Ostertag was
present at the bar. Mr. Ostertag explained that he did the cleaning, bookwork and inspections
in the evening when the bar was open.
Council Member Tower questioned how many nights a week he was in the bar to observe the
activity from 8 pm to bar time. Mr. Ostertag stated that he was there on the busier nights. He
stated that he tried to be there as much as he could and he made nightly stops to check on
things.
Council Member Tower questioned the updates on the dress code. Mr. Ostertag explained that
the updates included long chains, medallions, the flat brim hats and that clothing could not be
longer than the zipper line.
Council Member Tower questioned what the dress code was like prior to the June update. Mr.
Ostertag explained that dew rags, jerseys, pajamas and no jogging shorts were not allowed or
inappropriate clothing at his discretion.
Council Member Tower questioned if there had been issues with refilling liquor bottles.
Attorney Posanski explained that those allegations were ongoing and his constitutional right
was not to answer. He explained that his client denied the allegations.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned Attorney Posanski's theory as to why the license may be
revoked. Attorney Posanski stated that he did not deny that there had been incidents. He
explained his theory was that the police did not agree with the cliental.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned why the cliental would not be liked. Attorney Posanski
stated that he did not know the answer.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned the type of cliental. Attorney Posanski explained that they
were a college age crowd with a mixed race.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned the seriousness of the dress code. Attorney Posanski
stated that the college patrons understand the code.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that the dress code was a joke.
Attorney Posanski stated that it was a small business and it had been posted.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned what the statement that all items listed on the dress code
would need to be removed and placed outside. Mr. Ostertag explained that items would be
removed and taken to their vehicle.
Council Member Tower questioned the cliental in the bars within the area. Mr. Ostertag
17
explained that he was not sure of the cliental in other bars.
Council Member Tower stated that if the license was not renewed, the cliental would proceed
to another bar. Attorney Posanski stated that the question would be intended for the police as
they were the ones wanting to close the bar.
Mayor Esslinger questioned why the dress code had taken so long to implement after the
December meeting. Mr. Ostertag stated that there had been other dress codes, however, this
was updated. He explained that he could update again and include no nap sacks.
Mayor Esslinger announced that the final statements would be given by the Attorneys.
Mr. Renning provided the certificate of service that service had been provided to Mr. Ostertag.
Mayor Esslinger questioned if that was to be acknowledged and entered as an exhibit.
Ms. Lorenson stated that it would be filed as exhibit 6.
Attorney Posanski objected stating that the record was closed.
Ms. Lorenson explained that Council could take it as the record had not been closed. She
stated that it would be decided by Council if they wanted to accept or not.
Attorney Renning explained that the Clerk had the copy filed in the Clerks Office and the
record was not closed.
Council Member King explained that it was a matter of public record, so the public record
spoke for itself.
Mayor Esslinger stated that it would be entered as an exhibit.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Attorney Renning explained that the problems started off July 1 2008 were looking for the
renewal period for July 1, 2009 through June 30, 2010. He stated that the call volume at
O'Brian's was significantly higher than any other call volume at any other tavern in the City. He
stated that in November after informal abatement procedures and officer interaction with
O'Brian's staff the police began their formal abatement process with notice of the
consequences for not following this process. He stated that Mr. Ostertag acknowledged
receipt
and understood the consequences. He explained that things continued to decline as there was
an increase of calls. He explained that in March the Oshkosh Police Department and the State
W-1
conducted an investigation and found violations of alcohol and tobacco not purchased from the
wholesalers and refilling bottles, gambling, pull tab issues, not defacing or breaking the bottles.
He urged Council to review how serious Mr. Ostertag was with regards to the abatement
process and the procedures and timing of procedures that were implemented. He explained
that it was outrageous to question the integrity of the police and the Chief. He explained that
the call volume as well as the incidents that took place in March showed that Mr. Ostertag
maintained a disorderly, riotous, indecent location which warrants the Chiefs request to not
renew the liquor license at this time.
Attorney Posanski explained the difficulty to try the case before Council within one night. He
thanked the staff for their time. He questioned if issues such as this needed to be tried at a
Council Meeting. He stated that a special meeting would be appropriate for this type of
meeting. He stated that the issue before the Council was serious. He explained that the
notification of timelines was not appropriate. He explained that there were 12 instances that
were of importance. He explained that Mr. Ostertag had a high volume business. He stated
that there was not enough time to prepare. He urged Council to grant the license and it would
be revoked if problems continued. He explained that Mr. Ostertag had complied with the
abatement by changing drink specials, amended the procedures at the door, and increased
staff training as well as posting City ordinances at the door. He stated that if problems
increased the City could revoke the license or not renew it. He explained that if the problems
would persist and the license was going to be revoked Mr. Ostertag would have the ability then
to sell the establishment rather than having an empty building.
Council Member Buchholz stated that he would vote in favor of the renewal; however, it was
with great reservation to do so. He thanked the Oshkosh Police Department for their
involvement by trying to work with the community regarding issues of this nature.
Council Member Poeschl stated that change needed to happen at Mr. Ostertag's business. He
urged Mr. Ostertag to request help if needed regarding the abatement process. He stated that
he would support to renew the license. He explained that if the problems did continue he
would vote against the renewal next year.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned Attorney Lorenson if the March inspection by the state and
city would be allowed to consider the determination of the license. Ms. Lorenson stated that it
would be allowed for consideration.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Deputy Mayor Palmeri explained that the issue to determine the renewal or not was based on
trust. He stated that he trusted the Chief and would vote against the renewal of the license.
He explained that the Chief proved that this was a public safety issue. He agreed that the
process regarding handling tavern licenses needed to be revised.
Council Member Tower explained that it had been presented that there had been issues. He
19
explained that licensing was a privilege and with a privilege came responsibility. He stated that
the responsibility had not been shown to the Council. He stated that he would vote against the
renewal.
Council Member McHugh stated that Mr. Ostertag had started to make improvements in
several areas since the previous discussion with the Chief. He stated that he would support
the renewal. He explained that situation would make O'Brian's a better establishment or he
would no longer be there.
Council Member King explained that Council was seeing the benefits of a new Police Chief and
the impact of benefits regarding community policing. She questioned the last time there had
been a hearing regarding public safety, enforcement of law and illegal gambling in taverns.
She stated that there were proprietors breaking the law and not taking public safety seriously.
She announced how proud she was of the Chief and the Officers through community policing,
taking steps to make business owners accountable for public safety and for the use of our
public safety resources. She explained that this televised public hearing showed the other
proprietors within the City that public safety was taken seriously. She explained that she would
have liked for the police to provide a timeline for issues to be met or consequences would take
place. She stated that exhibit one was valuable for the case. She explained that she had no
comparison as to how many other taverns had been inspected and the outcome of those. She
explained that due to this hearing there was now a higher standard in the City. She stated that
she would support the renewal based on the lack of the understanding of the timeline
accountability for the abatement plan.
Mayor Esslinger stated that he had faith and confidence in Chief Greuel. He explained that the
Chief had presented a case regarding the problems at the establishment. He stated that the
issues were subjective as to who was at fault. He stated that the tavern owners have been put
on notice that they would be scrutinized and if there were problems the Chief would come
forward. He stated that he would support the liquor license; however, if the Chief would come
back to Council with incidents he would revoke the license.
Resolution 09 -227 WITHDRAWN
Resolution 09 -228 Approval of Final Resolution for Special Assessments for Cold Mix
Asphalt Paving (Minnesota Street, 7 th Avenue, 18 Avenue Ontario Street,
Sweet Street, Shorelane Street) (Petition received for sewer
improvements on Shorelane Street, before it is paved)
MOTION: ADOPT (Palmeri; second, Tower)
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
MOTION: AMEND TO ELIMINATE SHORELANE STREET FROM THE PROGRAM
(Tower; second, King)
CARRIED: Ayes (7) Buchholz, Palmeri, King, Poeschl, Tower, McHugh,
Mayor Esslinger
20
VOTE ON RESOLUTION AS AMENDED
CARRIED: Ayes (7) Buchholz, Palmeri, King, Poeschl, Tower, McHugh,
Mayor Esslinger
Wilber Scoville, 324 Shorelane Street, explained that there were no sewer problems prior to
1962. He stated that when the overflow problem was fixed that was when the problems with
the sewer began. He explained that sewer problems should be fixed prior to fixing the street
and urged Council to fix the sewer prior to laying asphalt.
Mayor Esslinger questioned if the Engineering Department felt that the sewer needed to be
repaired.
Mr. Patek explained that in the future the sewer could be fixed and then concrete paving would
be applied. He recommended Council to pull Shorelane Street from the resolution, if that was
what the residents were requesting and schedule for construction in the future.
Mayor Esslinger questioned if Engineering agreed with putting in a new sewer.
Mr. Patek stated that the sewer was not 100 years old. He explained with the experience that
Engineering has had with sewers constructed in the 1930's it would be wise to replace. He
stated that they had been concerned because the residents of the neighborhood had not
shown interest regarding improvements to the streets; therefore they proposed the cold mix
program.
Mayor Esslinger questioned if there had been calls related to flooding issues due to the sewer.
Mr. Patek stated that he could not recall.
Mayor Esslinger questioned the timeframe if pulled from the resolution and what the PACER
rating was.
Mr. Patek explained that it would be two to three years. It would depend on how the program
would be implemented into the capital improvement program. He stated that the rating was a
two and was in poor condition.
Council Member Buchholz questioned if the sewer under Shorelane Street was an issue or if it
was an issue with a connecting street.
Mr. Patek explained that the sewer on Babbitz Avenue was being replaced and the adjacent
streets were concrete.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned the purpose of pulling the street from the program. He
stated that he understood that it was pulled due to the suggestion of the residents.
21
Mr. Rohloff stated that there was a petition regarding the issue.
Ordinance 09 -229 Approve Various Amendments to Chapter 30 Zoning Ordinance to add a
new definition for "Adaptive Reuse" and Permitting the Adaptive Reuse of
Specific Buildings in Residential Districts as Conditional Uses (Plan
Commission Recommends Approval)
There were no appearance and the Public Hearing was CLOSED.
FIRST READING: LAID OVER UNDER THE RULES
CONSENT AGENDA
Approval of Minutes from May 26, 2009 Council Meeting.
Approval of Bills presented by the Finance Director.
Approval of Cash Report from May 2009.
Receipt and Filing of Library Board Minutes from March 26 April 30 and May 28 2009.
Receipt and Filing of Museum Board Minutes from May 7, 2009.
Petition received for sewer improvements on Shorelane Street, before it is paved.
Approval to Players Pizza and Pub Utilize South Park and facilities for their Park Dance Event
July 10, 2009.
Approval to Peace Lutheran and First English Church Utilize City Streets for their
Neighborhood Picnic September 13, 2009
Approval to TFM Promotions Utilize Millers Bay and facilities for their Midwest Walleye
Tournament October 9 and 10, 2009.
Approval to the American Cancer Society Utilize Menominee Park and Facilities for their 1 st
Annual Making Strides Against Breast Cancer -Fox Cities Walk October 3, 2009.
Approval to Take Back the Night Utilize City Streets for their Annual Take Back the Night
March and Rally October 6, 2009.
Approval to UWO Utilize City Streets for their Road Race July 12, 2009.
Approval to Kappa Lambda Chapter of Zeta Tau Alpha Utilize City Streets fortheirThink Pink
5K Run /Walk/Roll October 17, 2009.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
22
Approval to Grand Opera House/ Utilize Grand Opera House Square for Movies in the Park/
July 10 and 24, August 7 and 21, 2009.
Receipt of Claim filed with the City's Insurance Company Doris Matulle for property damages
alleged from a sewer back -up in basement.
Receipt of Claim filed with the City's Insurance Company Liberty Mutual (policy holder
Thomas and Kay Mettlach) for property damages alleged from sewer back -up.
Resolution 09 -230 Approve Granting an Easement to American Transmission
Company on the Lakeshore Municipal Golf Course Property
Along USH 41 to Relocate a Transmission Line in Conjunction
with the USH 41 Reconstruction Project (Plan Commission
Recommends Approval)
Resolution 09 -231 Approve a Conditional Use Permit to Permit Funeral Services
in Association with a Hmong Community Center 910 West
Murdock Avenue (Plan Commission Recommends Approval)
Resolution 09 -232 Approve Mutual Aid Box Alarm System MABAS) Agreement for Receipt
or Deployment of Personnel and \or Equipment in a Multi- Jurisdictional or
Multi- Agency Emergency Response throughout Wisconsin and
Neighboring States
Council Member McHugh questioned if 20% of adequate resources would be sufficient.
Tim Franz, Fire Chief, stated that the department was always staffed at 80 He explained
that if 20% of resources would be out for a period of time they would recall and re- staff
equipment.
Council Member Buchholz questioned if there would be a communication center for the
MABAS and where it was.
Chief Franz explained that there was no central communication center; each communication
center in the state would be by district. He stated that Oshkosh's district would be Winnebago
County and they would have a shared frequency called IFERN. He explained that this allowed
for additional resources to be pulled from different counties, as well as Illinois. He stated that
eventually this could go nationwide.
Resolution 09 -233 Award Bid for Public Works Contract No. 09 -07 to Carl Bowers and Sons
Construction Company for Various Concrete Paving and Utility Projects
North Side Paving ($3,534,641.00)
Council Member Buchholz questioned where the engineering cost was approved.
23
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Mr. Patek stated that it had been approved in the capital improvement program. He explained
that the CIP included the cost plus 12% for engineering design and construction management.
Council Member Buchholz questioned the $500,000 saving and what happened to the
reallocation.
Mr. Patek explained that the funds would stay in that section.
Mr. Rohloff explained that unspent funds were reconciled as future borrowing took place.
Resolution 09 -234 Approve Authorized Representative to File Applications for Financial
Assistance under the Wisconsin Environmental Improvement Fund
Clean Water Fund Program for Storm Water and Wastewater System
Improvements
Resolution 09 -235 Approve Declaration of Intent to Reimburse Expenditures for Wastewater
Facilities Improvements in Anticipation of Funding Through the Wisconsin
Environmental Improvement Fund Clean Water Fund Loan Program
Resolution 09 -236 Approve Declaration of Intent to Reimburse Expenditures for storm Water
Facilities Improvements in Anticipation of Funding through the Wisconsin
Environmental Improvement Fund Clean Water Fund Loan Program
Resolution 09 -237 Disallow Claim by Sentry Insurance (policy holder— Dean Brawn) for
property damages alleged from City cleaning lines
Resolution 09 -238 Disallow Claim by Dorothy Durrant (for property damages alleged from
sewage forced out of drain in basement)
Resolution 09 -239 Disallow Claim by Lang Oil (property damages alleged from Ohio
Street reconstruction)
Resolution 09 -240 Approval of Annual City License Polito's Pizza
Resolution 09 -241 Approval of Special Class B Licenses, Combination "Class B" Licenses,
Transfer of Combination "Class B" License, Operator's Licenses, Junk
Collector License and Taxi Cab License
MOTION: ADOPT CONSENT AGENDA EXCLUDING RESOLUTION 09 -241 (King;
second, Buchholz)
CARRIED: Ayes (7) Buchholz, Palmeri, King, Poeschl, Tower, McHugh,
Mayor Esslinger
24
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Resolution 09 -241 Approval of Special Class B Licenses, Combination "Class B" Licenses,
Transfer of Combination "Class B" License, Operator's Licenses, Junk
Collector License and Taxi Cab License
MOTION: Adopt (Palmeri; second, King)
MOTION: DIVIDE INTO TWO PARTS: PART A BEING AMVETS POST #7; AND
PART B BEING EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE AMVETS POST #7
(Palmeri; second, King)
CARRIED: Ayes (7) Buchholz, Palmeri, King, Poeschl, Tower, McHugh,
Mayor Esslinger
Resolution 09- 241AApproval of Special Class B Licenses, Combination "Class B" Licenses to
AMVETS Post #7
MOTION: ADOPT (Palmeri; second, King)
CARRIED: Ayes (6) Buchholz, Palmeri, King, Poeschl, Tower, McHugh;
Present (1) Mayor Esslinger
Mayor Esslinger stated that he would vote present as the AMVETS were a client of his.
Resolution 09 -241 BApproval of Special Class B Licenses, Combination "Class B" Licenses,
Transfer of Combination "Class B" License, Operator's Licenses, Junk
Collector License and Taxi Cab License (except for AMVETS Post #7)
MOTION: ADOPT (Palmeri; second, King)
CARRIED: Ayes (7) Buchholz, Palmeri, King, Poeschl, Tower, McHugh,
Mayor Esslinger
ACTION TAKEN ON ORDINANCES AND RESOLUTIONS
Ordinance 09 -242 Set Interest Rate for Special Assessment Payment Plans
MOTION: ADOPT (Palmeri; second, Buchholz)
CARRIED: Ayes (7) Buchholz, Palmeri, King, Poeschl, Tower, McHugh,
Mayor Esslinger
Ordinance 09 -243 Change Hours of Enforcement for Monthly Parking Spaces
FIRST READING; LAID OVER UNDER THE RULES
Ordinance 09 -244 Revision of Parking Permit Programs and Removal of Parking Meters from
25
West 8th Avenue and Riverside Park Municipal Parking Lots
FIRST READING; LAID OVER UNDER THE RULES
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Ordinance 09 -245 Approval of Traffic Control Changes on Michigan Street, McKinley Street and
West 12th Avenue and Parking Regulations Changes on Algoma Boulevard,
Eagle Street, Lincoln Avenue and Vine Avenue
FIRST READING; LAID OVER UNDER THE RULES
Resolution 09 -246 Approval of Annual City License Screwballs Sports Pub
MOTION: ADOPT (Palmeri; second, Buchholz)
CARRIED: Ayes (6) Buchholz, Palmeri, King, Poeschl, Tower, McHugh;
Present (1) Mayor Esslinger
Mayor Esslinger stated that he would vote present as the owner was a client of his.
Resolution 09 -247 Approve Granting Privilege in Street to Mark Glomstead, et al for
Placement of Private Irrigation System within the Terraces on Fox Fire
Drive and East Pheasant Court at 400 Fox Fire Drive (Plan Commission
Recommends Denial)
MOTION: ADOPT (Palmeri; second, Buchholz)
MOTION: LAYOVER UNTIL JULY 14, 2009 MEETING (King; second, McHugh)
CARRIED: Ayes (7) Buchholz, Palmeri, King, Poeschl, Tower, McHugh,
Mayor Esslinger
Mark Glomstead, 400 Fox Fire Drive, stated that he was requesting the privilege in the street
and had a number of exhibits to present. He explained that he was installing an irrigation
system in his yard. He presented a blue print of the design showing approximately 24 sprinkler
heads in the City terrace. He stated that his plumbing permit had been approved and he
started work on May 29 and then five days later the City requested to stop excavation. He
explained that at this point he had approximately $1,500 invested in the installation along with
labor and that it was 70% complete. He stated that it had been suggested to provide a release
of liability to the City and that was included in the packet. He explained that he had completed
everything that had been requested from the City. He stated that the Plan Commission had
provided him with a list of encumbrances that were obstructionist and not fair. He requested
the Council to strike one, seven, eight, nine and ten from the resolution. He explained that
there would be additional costs of a least $1,000 to re- engineer the system and de- excavate
what had been installed.
Council Member McHugh stated that he had been granted permission and complied with
requests; therefore, he should be allowed to continue. He explained that there was an honest
mistake made at City Hall and that this would not set precedence if approved. He explained
26
that the problem in the terraces was trees and those were allowed by the City.
Council Member Tower stated that there was room to compromise. He questioned the number
of encumbrances he wanted removed. He questioned Public Works if there was an annual
$450 fee to be a member of digger's hotline.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Mr. Rohloff stated that there was an annual fee with digger's hotline.
Steve Gohde, Assistant Director, stated that typically there was fee; he was not sure of the
cost.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned the purpose of having a home owner become a member of
the digger's hotline system.
Mr. Gohde explained that in the event the utility had to dig in the terrace they needed to
contact diggers hotline for a planning locate. He stated that if a contractor was to dig and run
into a problem not listed with digger's hotline then all excavation would need to stop until it was
indicated as to what it was.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that if he belonged to the digger's hotline they would be aware of
what was located in the area.
Mr. Gohde explained that if he was in the digger's hotline they would know it was an irrigation
system and what depth it was and then they would be able to dig through and not stop.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned what the purpose of number eight was, that the irrigation
system be modified or removed immediately upon the request of the City.
Ms. Lorenson explained the privilege in the street was a statutory thing that was granted and
required the property owner to comply with several requests. She explained that it would not
require the City to be liable to remove the system.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that he had heard at the Plan Commission that nine of the
conditions were always given and two additional ones had been added to this situation.
Mr. Gohde stated that it was correct that nine were granted and in this case two additional
ones were added due to it was private property with the possibility of the property being sold
and the future owner not aware of the responsibilities that go with it.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned if number eight was statutory.
Ms. Lorenson explained that number eight was based on the statutory language which states
that the owner was obligated to remove an obstruction or excavation upon a ten day notice
from the municipality.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that he perceived the discussion with the Plan Commission that
27
the conditions given were a compromise. He stated that he would support the resolution.
Mr. Patek explained if there was a requirement for digger's hotline in the State Statutes as
there was a requirement for Public Works to locate utilities for anything in the right of way. He
stated that conditions were more restrictive.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Mr. Rohloff stated that this was a unique situation. He questioned if Mr. Glomstead's
homeowners insurance would be appropriate coverage.
Ms. Lorenson stated that she was not sure that homeowners insurance would be sufficient.
She explained that if he was granted the privilege, the home owner would sign a hold harmless
agreement that would be sufficient under the Statute.
Mr. Patek stated that all utility departments were required to locate their utilities.
Mr. Rohloff explained the reason conditions were in place were to make record of what was
placed in the terrace for future years.
Ms. Lorenson stated that the insurance was a statutory obligation to assume liability. She
stated that Mr. Glomstead needed to contact his homeowners insurance to see if liability would
be covered under that policy and if it would be then it would be approved.
Council Member Buchholz explained that on a memo it was stated that if approved by Council
there would need to be two conditions included. He questioned how it went from two
conditions to eleven.
Mr. Rohloff explained that he had requested Mr. Kinney to include those two conditions in the
memo. He stated that the other conditions were statutory requirements.
Council Member McHugh stated that Mr. Glomstead should not be held liable for financial cost
of this project due to the mistake. He explained that it was an honest mistake. He stated that
residential homes were not required to join digger's hotline.
Council Member Tower explained that it was an unusual circumstance relating to the honest
mistake and that it was an irrigation line. He stated that if denied the City needed to take
responsibility in replacing the lawn on the terrace. He questioned what needed to be done
statutorily to resolve the problem. He stated that there was no compromise if all of the
conditions were required.
Mayor Esslinger stated that an honest mistake had been made. He suggested that the City
pay for re- engineering of the irrigation system and have the irrigation line in his lawn and not in
the terrace.
Mr. Glomstead stated that it would be the lesser of the two acceptable options. He explained if
W-1
the line was not in the terrace he would need to irrigate 1,200 square feet of sidewalk to have
the water reach the terrace.
Mayor Esslinger questioned if residents were allowed to spray water over the sidewalk to water
the terrace.
Mr. Rohloff stated that he was unaware of any prohibition concerning that. He stated that
another alternative was not to irrigate it at all. He explained that the City wanted to
accommodate the situation as the City recognized the honest mistake.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Mr. Patek stated that it was allowed.
Council Member Buchholz stated that he agreed with Mayor Esslinger's suggestion and a
compromise needed to happen. He questioned if Mr. Glomstead needed to file a claim.
Mr. Rohloff explained that it would be an appropriate compensation without filing a claim.
Council Member Buchholz questioned if the City considered spraying water across the
sidewalk was unsafe.
Mr. Rohloff explained that the only conditions regarding sidewalks were snow and ice removal.
Mayor Esslinger stated that he would not support to layover the resolution, as Mr. Glomstead
and his neighbors had been dealing with this matter for weeks and a decision needed to be
made.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri explained the purpose for the layover was to allow the City Attorney to
review what could statutorily be removed from the conditions.
Mr. Rohloff explained that it was proposed to layover to work through Mayor Esslinger's
suggestion.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that Mr. Glomstead did not sound enthused about the option
suggested by Mayor Esslinger; that he wanted to proceed with his project. He questioned if
any of the conditions could be removed.
Ms. Lorenson explained that the Statute required the applicant to assume primary liability for
damages to person or property by reason of granting the privilege; were obligated to remove
an obstruction or excavation upon ten days notice from a municipality; the holder of the
privilege was not entitled to damages for removal of the obstruction or excavation, if they don't
remove it upon notice the municipality had the right to remove it at the owner's expense; owner
needed to present a bond to secure the obligation of the performance of the conditions. She
stated that the City had not recommended the bond. She explained that seven, eight, nine and
ten were related to those requirements for assuming primary liability and removal of the
obstruction.
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Deputy Mayor Palmeri stated that the conditions were standard. He questioned if the
resolution was passed with the eleven conditions attached if the project would continue.
Mr. Glomstead stated that he had not decided due to his discouragement and was prepared to
remove the system and sell it. He stated as a last resort he would re- design the system and
remove the heads from the terrace.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned if the digger's hotline requirement was removed would that
help with the project to move forward.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Mr. Glomstead stated that it would be of help.
Mr. Patek explained that the City would not be the ones digging that area up, it would be the
gas company and the phone lines and they would not have knowledge as to what had been
done. He stated that he believed that it was a requirement of the State Statute.
Mr. Rohloff suggested the Mayor's proposal to layover and try to work through the issues.
Resolution 09 -248 Approve Memorandum of Understanding for Signage Installation and
Removal in Conjunction with EAA's Airventure
MOTION: ADOPT (Palmeri; second, Buchholz)
CARRIED: Ayes (7) Buchholz, Palmeri, King, Poeschl, Tower, McHugh,
Mayor Esslinger
Deputy Mayor Palmeri questioned why the agreement was with EAA and not Country USA or
other large events held in the City.
Chris Strong, Transportation Director explained that the agreement was based on past
practice. He stated that if needed for another event it would be a similar agreement.
Council Member Buchholz questioned why it was approved as a memorandum and not an
agreement.
Mr. Strong explained there had always been an understanding; however it was not
documented. He stated that he did not see a difference between a memorandum of
understanding and agreement.
CITIZEN STATEMENTS
Kenneth Neyhard, 642 West 8 Avenue, urged the Council to fix the storm sewer in the 600
block of 8 Avenue in 2010 rather than 2011. He stated that an engineer had explained to him
that the storm sewers were too small and needed to be six inches larger than what they
currently were and the sewers needed to be deeper in the ground. He stated that he had
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problems with the pipes freezing and had to have the City come to thaw them out. He thanked
Mr. Rohloff for his consideration and the Council for listening.
Council Member Poeschl questioned if the problem area was from 8 th Avenue to Ohio Street.
Mr. Neyhard stated that yes it would be to Ohio Street. He explained that the sewer was about
100 years old.
Susan Schneider, 634 West 8 th Avenue, stated that she had spoken on the issue
approximately one year ago. She stated that it had been suggested then to have a
neighborhood meeting and she has yet to have heard of any meeting. She explained that she
had $36,000 of damage from the June 2008 flood and it had taken one year to clean up their
home. She stated that they had an additional $8,000 of plumbing added to their basement to
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
secure there would be no back up again. She explained that in June of 2009 she had been
concerned with flooding of the streets and once again there was sewer water in the basement.
She stated that her plumber assured her there was no problem with the pipes in her basement;
however, there was a problem with the pipes in the street. She stated that she was afraid to
leave her home in fear of flooding in her basement and was seeing a counselor due to the
issues with the flooding. She requested an explanation as to why it would take two years to fix
the problem.
Betsy Waters, 648 West 8 th Avenue, urged the Council to move forward to fix the problems with
flooding on 8 th Avenue. She explained that she had between 5.5 and 6.5 inches of water in her
basement. She stated that it was emotionally damaging the residents in that area. She stated
that her basement walls were caving in.
Brian Heidel, 623 West 8 th Avenue, urged Council to move forward with construction prior to
2011. He explained that there had been four feet of water surrounding his home.
Council Member Poeschl questioned if he was speaking about the basement or his house.
Mr. Heidel explained that he had a crawl space and the water went past that.
Patty Richter, 616 West 8 th Avenue, stated that on June 8 2009 there had almost been
another flood as the water went to the front lawns and this was with less than one inch of rain.
She explained that City workers had gone out on June 10 2009 to check the sewers and
were informed that the sewer pipe location was two and half feet deep. She explained that
there were a number of streets that needed to be fixed; however, they were the only street that
continues to flood.
Lori Stang, 641 West 8 th Avenue, stated that 8 th Avenue had previous problems with flooding in
2004 flooding in the homes took place. She showed pictures of the road after the flood in 2004
and 2008. She stated that on June 12 2008 they were evacuated to the City Centre that was
cold and had no blankets and no where to sleep and she went to a hotel; June 13 2008 they
returned to homes and the street was still under water. She stated that on June 9 1h her
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basement had 6' 7" and the neighbors all had three, four, five, six feet; therefore, residents
were unable to pump water out. She stated that 9 1h Avenue was completely dry, and 8 th
Avenue was the only street in Oshkosh with standing water. She stated that July 10, 2008 the
streets backed up again and the basements were again flooded. She stated that on June 9,
2009 she spoke to FEMA and was told that the City would be liable for damages due to the
City being aware of the problem and were not fixing it. She urged the Council to vote on what
was needed and not wanted and proceed with fixing the problem on 8 th Avenue. She stated
that the City's neglect can no longer be the homeowners repair bill.
Geoff Kuhnz, 4279 Fisk Avenue, explained that he was present to discuss the west side
arterial and that five minutes was not enough to speak on the troubles with the project. He
stated that it was too close to Highway 41, did not provide a remedy for moving traffic across
the Butte Des Morts bridge without the use of Highway 21; executives from three trucking firms
have stated that the west side arterial was not a reasonable alternative to the usage of
Highway 41 because it needed to be further west; the project destroyed hundreds of acres of
productive and taxable
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
farm land; thus far there had been inadequate engineering scientific or economic justification;
the rational that the three mile extra territorial limit contains you to map a 40 to 50 year old road
close to highway 41; the proposal does not use any existing road; and the fact that Town of
Nekimi Board and citizens had sent a resolution that continued the unanimous objection to the
project were not subjects that can be talked about within the five minute timeline. He explained
a Council Member he had spoken with stated that they had sensed frustration for a number of
reasons, one reason being there was not enough information pertaining to the road plan and
the impact on the community in that vein he urged the Council to understand. He stated that
the citizens that had spoken at the April 28 meeting spoke with emotion and sincerity. He
stated that the reconciliation from speaking emotionally or passionately about the project was
the understanding of the factual circumstances. He explained that his home had been built 10
years ago on Fisk Avenue between Clairville Road and Clay Road relying on information that
an eventual Westside arterial would use Clairville Road for that purpose and built the home in
the back end of the 40 acres approximately 1,000 feet south of Fisk Avenue, the home had 80
windows and no curtains and the market value and appeal was due to the privacy, security and
tranquility. He stated that they had intentions to reside there forever and had invested financial
resources in the home that they would not recover as many township neighbors had when they
built their homes. He explained that they loved their location. He stated that the current
alternative ran through farm land with no existing road being used. He stated that property
owners would receive payment for their land but not their loss. He explained that if the road
right of way would take 125 feet from both himself and his neighbor; he would receive
approximately $4,000 from the land and nothing for the decline in the value of the home. He
stated that he had received two professional appraisals regarding the impairment to his home's
value relative to the proposed road and the decrement ranges from a $100,000 in the low side
to $200,000 on high side due to location. He stated that the properties impairment was
occurred when the road was mapped and not built. He urged Council to minimize the
emotional and financial impacts that were illustrated tonight, demand that the planners justify
their plan; support their evaluations, judgments, recommendations, prioritizations, alternatives
and conclusions in the way that any great organization would; demand that there be no
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constraint in imagination because a good solution was not good enough.
Doug Buettner, 901A South Main Street, questioned why sidewalks needed to be replaced if
damaged slightly. He questioned why the citizens could not provide one minute of input prior
to the meeting. He questioned why the inspectors were not taking recorders with them.
COUNCIL MEMBER ANNOUNCEMENTS, STATEMENTS AND DISCUSSION
Council Member Tower announced that on July 7 1h Henry Kimberly would be 90 years old. He
stated that he had been a civic leader for many years and helped to bring EAA to Oshkosh.
Council Member Poeschl questioned if Council would hold a workshop meeting regarding the
residents of 8 1h Avenue. He questioned the time that the Westside arterial would come before
Council.
Mayor Esslinger stated that he was requesting to be noticed for the next Council Meeting for
the 2010 capital improvement program relating to 8 1h Avenue.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON COUNCIL -.TUNE 23, 2009
Mr. Rohloff stated that he would provide a report as well as an update.
Council Member Buchholz suggested that license hearings should be separated from the
regular meeting.
CITY MANAGER ANNOUNCEMENTS, STATEMENTS AND DISCUSSION
Mr. Rohloff stated that the Grand Opera House had received $5,000 to help cover inspection
cost of the ceiling. He stated that there was a tentative meeting to be held on July 28 He
stated that it would be approximately half hour prior to the meeting. He stated that the Grand
Opera House bids would be on the Agenda as well as the 400 block issue. He stated that the
Public Hearing regarding Lane Street was pulled due to the increase in cost and the need for
notice of the meeting. He explained that the residents had been notified and were satisfied
with deferring it until July 14
Council Member Tower questioned if the liquor license allocation would be held on July 28
Mr. Rohloff stated that they would try to reschedule the Passenger Rail Workshop due to the
Agenda being filled with time consumable issues.
Deputy Mayor Palmeri observed that when there was an issue of urgency it was continually
placed on the agenda and the 8 1h Avenue issued had never been on the agenda.
Mr. Rohloff stated that that was part of the reason why the Capital Improvement Program was
moved up.
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MOTION: ADJOURN (Poeschl; second McHugh)
CARRIED: VOICE VOTE
The meeting adjourned at 11:25 p.m.
PAMELA R. UBRIG
CITY CLERK
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