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PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES
June 3, 2008
PRESENT: David Borsuk, Ed Bowen, Meredith Scheuermann, Thomas Fojtik, Paul Esslinger,
Kathleen Propp, Cathy Scherer, Shirley Mattox, Jon Dell’Antonia
EXCUSED: Paul Lowry, Chet Wesenberg
STAFF: Darryn Burich, Director of Planning Services; David Buck, Principal Planner; Jeff Nau,
Associate Planner; Steve Gohde, Assistant Director of Public Works; Deborah Foland,
Recording Secretary
Chairperson Dell’Antonia called the meeting to order at 4:01 pm. Roll call was taken and a quorum
declared present.
The minutes of May 20, 2008 were approved as presented. (Scherer/Lowry)
I. CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT/PLANNED DEVELOPMENT APPROVAL TO RE-
ESTABLISH OFFICE USE AT 310 W. IRVING AVENUE
The applicant is requesting a conditional use permit/development plan approval to re-establish an
expired legal nonconforming professional office use within an existing commercial structure.
Mr. Buck presented the item and stated that the site had limited area to provide for the required ten
parking stalls, six required for the office use and four for the two-family dwelling parcel adjacent to the
office site. The petitioner and staff are proposing to deal with the issue with three conditions placed on
the request requiring cross access and cross parking agreements between the subject site and the adjacent
property as well as a base standard modification to allow two shared parking stalls with this site and the
adjacent one and a condition requiring employees of the office to have stalls provided off-street.
The commission members briefly discussed the parking options on the site.
Ms. Scheuermann inquired how staff would enforce the condition requiring employees of the office to
be parking in off-street areas.
Mr. Buck responded that if complaints are received from neighboring residents, staff would follow-up
on the issue at that time.
Mr. Bowen asked for clarification on the location of the ten parking stalls on the site.
Mr. Buck pointed out on the site plan the location of the ten proposed parking stalls.
Jeff Beck, 373 Overland Trail, representing Premier Group, representing the real estate agency
marketing the property, stated that there was sufficient area for three to four parking stalls by the duplex
adjacent to the site and with the removal of a few trees in the back of the duplex, an additional parking
stall could be created in that location. He further stated that the employees of the insurance agency
would be in and out of the office frequently, so they would not be parking there all day under normal
circumstances.
Plan Commission Minutes 1 June 3, 2008
Ms. Mattox questioned if there were any guidelines regulating signage in this area as it is a historic
district.
Mr. Buck responded that there were no specific city design standards for signage in a historic district
other than the standard zoning code regulations limiting size, etc. in a residential area.
Motion by Borsuk to approve the conditional use permit/planned development to re-establish
office use at 310 W. Irving Avenue as requested with the following conditions:
1)Cross access and cross parking agreement be provided between the subject site and the
property adjacent to the east.
2)Base standard modification to the parking regulations to allow the sharing of two stalls
with the adjacent property adjacent to the east.
3)Employees of the office have stalls provided off-street.
Seconded by Fojtik. Motion carried 9-0.
II. ZONE CHANGE FROM C-2 GENERAL COMMERCIAL AND R-1 SINGLE FAMILY
RESIDENCE DISTRICT TO C-1 NEIGHBORHOOD BUSINESS DISTRICT FOR
PROPERTY LOCATED AT 2402 JACKSON STREET AND THE 200 BLOCK OF
BACON AVENUE
The applicant is requesting a zone change from C-2 General Commercial and R-1 Single Family
Residence Districts to C-1 Neighborhood Business District for the parcel of land containing Mike’s
Place Restaurant and the vacant residential lot east of and adjacent to said restaurant property.
Mr. Nau presented the item and explained that this request had been laid over from the last meeting of
the Plan Commission at which time the request was for a zone change from R-1 to C-2 General
Commercial District for the vacant parcel to the east of the restaurant site. The item was laid over to
allow city staff to discuss other options with the applicant/owner. Staff felt that the C-1 Neighborhood
Business District would be better suited for both parcels as it would allow the use of the vacant parcel
for the proposed dumpster enclosure that the owner was requesting, and allow less intrusive uses if in the
future the current restaurant use would cease to exist.
Ms. Mattox questioned if the owner was planning on using the vacant parcel for the dumpster enclosure
only, or if he would be continuing to utilize part of the parcel for snow storage in winter.
Mr. Nau replied that the owner was proposing the dumpster enclosure with landscaping along Bacon
Avenue in the form of a berm and shrubs and was still planning on using part of the area for snow
storage.
Ms. Mattox inquired if the shed currently on the site would remain.
Mr. Nau responded that it would to the best of his knowledge.
Mr. Bowen asked what materials, (chain link, wood, etc.), would be used for the dumpster enclosure.
Mr. Nau replied that the enclosure would be a minimum of six feet in height but the owner did not state
what materials are to be used.
Plan Commission Minutes 2 June 3, 2008
Mr. Borsuk questioned if the materials would be required to be consistent with the existing building
construction.
Mr. Nau responded that it must be either wood or masonry and the consistency requirements typically
apply in planned development districts.
Mr. Dell’Antonia asked if a condition should be added to this request requiring the parcels be combined
into one lot.
Mr. Nau replied that this would not be necessary under the circumstances since the city will not issue a
building permit to construct a dumpster enclosure and slab on a vacant parcel as code requirements do
not permit this.
Ms. Propp commented that she felt the rezoning of both parcels to C-1 was a good compromise.
Motion by Borsuk to approve the zone change from C-2 and R-1 to C-1 for property located at
2402 Jackson Street and the adjacent parcel on Bacon Avenue as requested.
Seconded by Scherer. Motion carried 9-0.
III. CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN AUTOMOBILE
WASH AT 2407 JACKSON STREET
The applicant is requesting a conditional use permit for the development of a two-bay automatic
automobile wash and associated site improvements.
Mr. Buck presented the item and stated that there were several conditions placed on this request dealing
with the possible future addition of vacuum stations, the ten foot storm sewer easement required by the
Department of Public Works on the south and east property lines, mechanical equipment screening and
the proposed ingress drive on the southern side of the east property line. Since the staff report was
completed, a seventh condition was requested to be added by the Department of Public Works requiring
a four foot sidewalk easement be placed along Jackson Street.
Mr. Borsuk questioned if the mechanical equipment would be placed on the ground or on the roof.
Mr. Buck replied that a grouping of mechanical equipment is proposed to be placed on the ground.
Mr. Borsuk then questioned if there would be any issues with stormwater management.
Mr. Buck responded that he did not believe so as the entire two-acre area was impervious and with the
addition of landscaping, there would be an increase in pervious green space in this case.
Mr. Borsuk asked about the reduction in solids to 40%.
Steve Gohde, Assistant Director of Public Works, explained that since the petitioner was not increasing
the impervious area, they would not have to comply with the suspended solid construction regulations.
Ms. Scheuermann questioned why the mechanical equipment was being located in the front of the
building.
Mr. Buck responded that they are usually located on the roof of the structure, but there is sufficient area
to locate them on the ground instead.
Plan Commission Minutes 3 June 3, 2008
Ms. Scheuermann then questioned the condition relating to the relocation of the future vacuum stations
and where on the site plan they could be placed.
Mr. Buck replied that they would either have to remove parking stalls to allow space for them or move
the vacuum stations back to the rear area of the site.
Ms. Scheuermann also inquired about the lack of a garbage enclosure for the site.
Mr. Buck responded that the petitioner could be planning on utilizing the tavern’s dumpsters for this site.
Alternatively, there is plenty of room on the site to add dumpsters if necessary.
Mr. Borsuk commented that he felt there should be a designated enclosed garbage dumpster for the car
wash on the site plan.
Ms. Mattox commented that she did not feel the possible vacuum stations should be relocated to the rear
of the site as there are condominiums south of this parcel and she was concerned with noise issues.
Mr. Buck replied that the petitioner would have to be in compliance with the City’s current noise
ordinance regulations.
Ms. Mattox then asked why there were so many stalls for stacking purposes for the car wash.
Mr. Buck responded that there were six stalls before entering the car wash and one after exiting which is
required by code.
Ms. Mattox questioned why the parking lot was being changed from the current parking stalls to angle
parking.
Mr. Buck replied that it was possibly to provide one-way circulation in the lot, but that the petitioner
would need to explain.
Donald Tripp, 2336 Wisconsin Street, stated that he lives in the condominium development adjacent to
the site in a second story unit. There are eight such upper-level units in the development and he feels
they are more susceptible to noise and traffic disturbances. He further stated that noise pollution already
exists in the area and voiced his concerns with the future addition of the vacuum stations and if they
would be covered or enclosed to deaden the noise effects on the surrounding properties. He objected to
the relocation of these vacuum stations to the rear of the site as that would place them directly across
from the condominium development and the additional parking and pedestrian traffic would create more
disturbances. He also stated that he felt that the proposed 24-hour a day operation would invite
vandalism and suggested that the landscaping be extended to the entire parking area. He also felt that
this car wash was not compatible with the area and that it was too close to other car wash facilities in the
community.
Ms. Scherer asked what type of buffer currently exists between the condo development and the subject
site.
Mr. Tripp responded that a six foot tall wood fence exists on the condo property.
Robert Cornell, 548 West Smith Avenue, president of the Board of Directors for the condo association,
commented that they spend $8,000 per year on maintaining their site and he also felt that extending the
Plan Commission Minutes 4 June 3, 2008
landscaping to the entire parking area would help. He further stated that he was concerned with lighting
and noise as several of the condominiums face the north. He agreed with Mr. Tripp that vandalism
could be an issue with a 24-hour unattended operation as well as loitering and asked if the hours could
be limited from 7 am to 7 or 8 pm daily.
Bob Poch, 15 Greenbriar Court, representing Keller, Inc. the petitioner for the project, questioned if the
sidewalks mentioned earlier were going to be installed immediately or if Public Works was just
requesting the easement at this time for future installation.
Mr. Gohde replied that the easement request was to permit future sidewalk installation.
Mr. Borsuk asked why the site plan did not include a dumpster enclosure.
Mr. Poch responded that there is a dumpster by the tavern and they were not planning on having any
garbage containers on the car wash site. The vacuum stations were being considered as a future addition
and not presently being installed so they did not feel the need for garbage containers as the car wash
itself should not generate any trash.
Mr. Borsuk asked if a garbage enclosure could be added to the plan.
Ron Lewellyn, 4320 West Ripple Avenue, stated that he had decided not to install the vacuum system
and therefore, would not have a need for a garbage dumpster on-site. He further stated that the
mechanical equipment that was to be located on Jackson Street that was previously referred to was the
transformer to house the electrical equipment for the car wash. He stated that the doors of the structure
close behind you once you enter the car wash so he felt that the noise would be minimal as it will be in
an enclosed area with the exit doors facing Jackson Street. The landscaping vegetation will also help to
buffer any noise from the operation.
Mr. Fojtik inquired about the hours of operation.
Mr. Lewellyn replied that he had not yet decided if he wanted to be open 24 hours a day.
Ms. Scheuermann asked about the lighting plan for the site.
Mr. Lewellyn responded that he only had plans to install lighting around the car wash structure.
Ms. Scheuermann then asked about installing additional lighting in the parking area.
Mr. Lewellyn replied that he did not wish to add too much lighting in the parking area since it is in close
proximity with residential properties.
Ms. Scheuermann asked what the code limitations were for lighting.
Mr. Buck responded that the minimum requirement was .4 foot candles at the property line and the
maximum was .5 foot. The existing lighting in the parking area would be acceptable as it is
grandfathered in as legal nonconforming.
Mr. Bowen questioned if the owner would be subdividing the parcels.
Mr. Buck replied that it would not be necessary as the owner was just altering some of the existing lot
lines which could be accomplished by quit claim deed and lot combination.
Plan Commission Minutes 5 June 3, 2008
Mr. Borsuk inquired if the owner had any performance standards relating to noise from the manufacturer
for this type of car wash operation.
Mr. Lewellyn responded that he could get this information but he did not have it with him today.
Mr. Burich commented that he had not had any complaints from citizens regarding noise issues with
other car washes in the city and that the city has ordinance regulations governing excessive noise.
Mr. Borsuk commented that the numerous grandfathered situations on this site are causing him
confusion.
Mr. Buck replied that only the area that is being reconstructed has to come into compliance with current
code standards and that the remaining lot that is not being redeveloped is exempt from these standards
until such a time that reconstruction or new development has commenced on the site.
Ms. Propp asked if the owner found the conditions acceptable.
Mr. Lewellyn responded yes.
Ms. Mattox questioned if there was another car wash with this same type of equipment in the city that
could be an example of how it operates regarding noise, etc.
Mr. Lewellyn replied that there was not any in Oshkosh and that the closest one to our area was located
in Appleton.
Ms. Mattox then questioned what type of landscaping could be installed in the easement areas.
Mr. Buck responded that it was yet to be determined what would be appropriate. Shrubs or trees that
would not have a root system that would possibly damage the sewer system need to be determined
between the owner and the Department of Public Works.
Mr. Cornell commented that the remaining parcel that is currently a gravel lot is zoned C-2 and he was
wondering if it was owned by the same party and if development was going to continue to expand
towards Wisconsin Street.
Mr. Buck replied that it was owned by the same party but at this time is not aware of any pending
development on the site.
Mr. Borsuk asked if the gravel lot was going to be used for additional parking in conjunction with either
the tavern or car wash development and if not, could this parcel be blocked off from the developed
parcel.
Mr. Lewellyn responded that the site was currently blocked off with cement blocks on the Wisconsin
Street side to prevent people from entering the lot from the west and he may eventually develop the site
with apartment units.
Mr. Borsuk commented that he felt if the gravel lot was not going to be improved as part of this site
plan, that a condition should be added to the request requiring that the gravel parking area to be blocked
off on the east side as well to prevent use on the site from the developed parcel.
Plan Commission Minutes 6 June 3, 2008
Mr. Gohde stated that emergency services may have an issue with this concept as it may prevent access
in an emergency situation.
Mr. Poch commented that the gravel parking area was meant to remain. They intended to keep the
tavern use as is and the parking area could be utilized as overflow parking, if needed.
Ms. Propp stated that she did not like the lay out of this site and would not support this development.
Mr. Fojtik commented that he agreed with Ms. Propp that the development had too many complications.
Mr. Bowen stated that he felt the development had too many issues with nonconforming uses and that
the car wash site should have some sort of method to deal with garbage, particularly if the vacuum
stations were going to be allowed. He further stated that he felt some restrictions should be placed on
the hours of operation for the car wash as the Commission has applied conditions restricting hours of use
on other car wash operations in the past.
Mr. Borsuk stated that he felt that the conditional use permit should apply to the entire site and the
grandfathered uses should be mitigated requiring the graveled parking lot be landscaped and paved. He
suggested that the item be laid over to allow the owner to develop a new site plan to deal with this
situation.
Ms. Scheuermann commented that she felt that the staff had reviewed the site plan and added the
appropriate conditions to deal with most factors other than the garbage enclosure was something she felt
should be addressed. She further stated that she was not aware that the Commission should restrict
hours of operation, but felt that if a condition was to be added to address that issue, a time of 7:00 pm
may be too early to cease operations.
Mr. Dell’Antonia suggested that the language in condition #4 could be altered to state that the vacuum
stations be removed instead of leaving the option in to relocate them to be code compliant. He also
agreed with Mr. Bowen that the Commission has restricted hours of operation on other car washes that
were approved previously and felt that we should be consistent.
Ms. Mattox commented that she was concerned with the graveled parking area and felt that if the owner
was planning on developing the lot with apartments, that the parcel should be rezoned to residential to
prevent any future commercial development on this site.
Motion by Dell’Antonia to alter condition #4 to “Future vacuum stations are removed” and add
condition #7 “A 4 foot sidewalk easement is provided along Jackson Street” and condition #8
“Hours of operation be consistent with other car wash developments that were previously
approved.”
Seconded by Scheuermann
Motion by Borsuk to add condition #9 “Graveled overflow parking lot area on west side of
property line not be used as part of this site plan and be barricaded on the west property line of
the developed site to prevent access from either the tavern or car wash use.
Seconded by Mattox.
Ms. Scheuermann commented that condition #9 may not be appropriate considering the comments from
Mr. Gohde regarding the emergency services being hindered by preventing access. She further stated
that she was not sure that all these additional restrictions should be placed on this request.
Plan Commission Minutes 7 June 3, 2008
The Commission members briefly discussed the options of this conditional use permit, the need for
additional conditions, and whether this entire site should be considered to be part of a new development
or an existing nonconforming use.
Motion by Dell’Antonia to withdraw the previous two motions to add or alter conditions and
offer the motions a second time with the Commission members voting on each amendment
separately.
Seconded by Scherer.
Motion by Dell’Antonia to alter condition #4 to “Future vacuum stations are removed” and add
condition #7 “A 4 foot sidewalk easement is provided along Jackson Street” and condition #8
“Hours of operation be consistent with other car wash developments that were previously
approved.”
Seconded by Borsuk. Motion carried 9-0.
Motion by Borsuk to add condition #9 “Graveled overflow parking lot area on west side of
property line not be used as part of this site plan and be barricaded on the west property line of
the developed site to prevent access from either the tavern or car wash use.
Seconded by Propp. Motion carried 7-2. Ayes-Borsuk/Bowen/Fojtik/Propp/Scherer/Mattox/
Dell’Antonia. Nays-Scheuermann/Esslinger.
Motion by Borsuk to approve the conditional use permit for the development of an automobile
wash at 2407 Jackson Street as requested with the following conditions:
1)A 10 foot storm sewer easement is provided along the entire south property line and
along the east property line a minimum of 10 feet beyond actual storm sewer pipe
location, with approval of the Department of Public Works.
2)Footings and any other extensions of the car wash structure are located outside of the
proposed easement areas.
3)Landscaping is adjusted to meet requirements of the code while still being appropriate to
be placed above the sewer.
4)Future vacuum stations are removed.
5)All mechanical equipment is screened from view of Jackson Street or residentially zoned
property.
6)Removal of the one-way ingress drive on the southern side of the east property line.
7)A 4 foot sidewalk easement is provided along Jackson Street.
8)Hours of operation be consistent with other car wash developments that were previously
approved.
9)Graveled overflow parking lot area on west side of property line not be used as part of
this site plan and be barricaded on the west property line of the developed site to prevent
access from either the tavern or car wash use.
Seconded by Fojtik. Motion carried 7-2. Ayes-Borsuk/Bowen/Scheuermann/Fojtik/Esslinger/
Mattox/Dell’Antonia. Nays-Propp/Scherer.
Mr. Borsuk stated that he would like clarification from staff regarding when property is being
redeveloped, what constitutes a change in use that would no longer allow grandfathered/nonconforming
uses to exist. He also wanted clarification on when stormwater regulations relating to volume and
cleanliness apply.
Plan Commission Minutes 8 June 3, 2008
Mr. Burich responded that when a site is being redeveloped that contains other existing uses, the new
construction area has to meet current city codes, but compliance with these regulations cannot be applied
to the rest of the site if it is not relative to the new development. He further stated that regarding
stormwater regulations, the city has ordinances that exist governing this aspect of new construction and
permits are not issued until the code requirements have been satisfied.
Mr. Borsuk then questioned the status of the revisions to the signage ordinance.
Mr. Burich replied that staff was still working on the proposed changes.
OTHER BUSINESS
There being no further business, the meeting adjourned at approximately 5:51 pm. (Scheuermann/
Propp)
Respectfully submitted,
Darryn Burich
Director of Planning Services
Plan Commission Minutes 9 June 3, 2008