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HomeMy WebLinkAboutLandmarks Minutes 11-10-21CITY OF OSHKOSH LANDMARKS COMMISSION Minutes November 10th, 2021 PRESENT: Shirley Brabender Mattox, Steve Cummings, Gerald Jacklin, Andrew Smith, Nikki Stoll Olthoff, Paulette Feld, Sara Stichert, Kristopher Ulrich EXCUSED: None ABSENT: Bill Miller STAFF AND OTHERS: Steven Wiley, Hassan Elannani (President of Oshkosh Mosque – 138 Church Avenue) 1. Call to Order Ms. Brabender Mattox called the meeting to order at 3:06 p.m. and a quorum was declared present. 2. Approval of October 13th, 2021 Meeting Minutes Ms. Brabender Mattox asked the Commission if there were any revisions for the October meeting minutes. She asked Mr. Wiley to revise the minutes in Item 11 – Outstanding Issues where the Commission discussed the recent purchase of the Northwestern Building. Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that the buyer’s name was T.J. Rodgers, not T.J. Waters. She asked Mr. Wiley to revise the minutes anywhere Mr. Rodger’s name was incorrect and switch out Waters for Rodgers. No Commissioners had any other revisions for the minutes so the Commission voted 8-0 to approve the minutes as written (Feld/Stoll Olthoff). 3. 404 W New York – Local Landmarking - Discussion The Commission voted to shift this item to after item 4 out of respect for Mr. Elannani who was in attendance for Item 4. Ms. Brabender Mattox provided an update after the discussion on Item 4. She stated that Mr. Green was in attendance at a previous Landmarks meeting. Mr. Green was on board with land marking his property and Ms. Brabender Mattox would revisit this project when able after getting other major projects out of the way. She hoped Mr. Green was back in town for the next meeting. 4. 138 Church Avenue – New Building Name Engraving – Discussion/Action The Commission voted to shift this item to before Item 3 as Mr. Elannani was in attendance to discuss this item with the Commission. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley to provide an introduction to this item. Mr. Wiley explained that the First Baptist Temple at 138 Church Avenue was recently purchased and became the Oshkosh Mosque. The new owners were looking to change the engraving above the front (Church Avenue) entrance from “First Baptist Temple” to “Oshkosh Mosque.” Mr. Wiley explained that the project was referred to him by other planning staff who were referred by Inspections. He stated that the building owner planned to use the same font as was used on the existing engraving. Mr. Elannini introduced himself as President of the Oshkosh Mosque. He currently worked at the university. He explained that his group had purchased the building from an Arizona investor. There was currently a lack of worship spaces for Muslims in the area and Muslims normally went to Neenah or Appleton. He stated that the neighboring church graciously allowed the mosque to use church parking and the proximity to the campus was a plus. There were many faculty members and students that looked for a place to worship and the mosque could attract people from the surrounding communities and even out of state. Mr. Elannini had spoken with the City Manager who was supportive of the mosque at the 138 Church Avenue location. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked how large of a congregation was at the Oshkosh Mosque. Mr. Elannani replied that the mosque attracted people from Oshkosh, Appleton, Fond du Lac, and surrounding communities. He did not know the exact number but the mosque attracted people from this side of the state. Mr. Cummings noted that Mr. Elannani mentioned there was no other mosque in town. A few years previously a mosque was approved on Sawyer Street across from Oshkosh West High School. He asked if that was still around. Mr. Elannani answered that the Oshkosh Mosque was for the mainstream community. He stated that it was open to everyone. He had been in touch with the neighboring churches and was working on building understanding and cooperation. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that the Commission would discuss the signage but that it was very encouraging that Mr. Elannani was considering seeking nomination for the National and State Registers. She asked Mr. Wiley if according to the survey the project was listed as eligible already. Mr. Wiley stated that he would have to look. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that a property’s inclusion in the survey was a first step in the process. She stated that the Commission would keep in touch with Mr. Elannani. She informed everyone that National Register Coordinator Peggy Veregin was leaving SHPO. She stated that the Commission had connections in Madison that could help Mr. Elannani get through the process. Mr. Elannani stated that the building was the second one in Oshkosh with a dome. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if the new sign would be stone and if Mr. Elannani’s group would take out what was currently on the building. Mr. Elannani stated that he had contacted the engraving company and they wanted to preserve the building so the engraving would look similar and have the same font as the old one. He did not know the technical aspects and whether it was better to remove the old one and replace with a new engraving but his group had wanted to obtain approval before doing anything. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked which company Mr. Elannani had worked with. Mr. Elannani stated that he did not remember the name of the company but could email it to the Commission. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if the company was in Oshkosh. Mr. Elannani replied that the company was in Appleton. He gave the company the picture and they said they could do the work but had to come and see exactly what the conditions were. Mr. Jacklin stated that he dealt with many international students in his time at the University and the mosque location was great. Mr. Ulrich stated that the mosque would be a great addition to the area and he imagined Mr. Elannani’s group would invest the time and effort to maintain the property. Mr. Ulrich believed the proposed engraving was less of an issue than the Grand signage. He stated that if the owners were removing something and replacing it with something identical except with different words he did not see an issue unless anything damaging occurred to the structure. He was happy to hear Mr. Elannani was applying for the Registers also. Mr. Elannani stated that the building had a lot of history. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked for a motion to approve the change of engraving for the new mosque. Mr. Ulrich made a motion to approve the change of engraving for the new mosque and Mr. Cummings seconded. Mr. Ulrich asked if Mr. Elannani would invite the Commission to tour the building after the work was done. Ms. Stoll Olthoff stated that the Commission could feature the tour on the Landmarks Facebook page. Mr. Elannani stated that the Oshkosh Mosque had a website (oshkoshmosque.us) and that they also had a Facebook page and that he would invite the Commission to visit as soon as possible. The Commission voted 8-0 to approve the change of engraving. Mr. Elannani thanked the Commission and the Commission thanked him for attending the meeting. Mr. Elannani left at 3:22 pm. Mr. Ulrich asked if there were only two domes in Oshkosh. Commissioners replied affirmatively. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that in the past there were more. Ms. Stoll Olthoff asked if it made sense to approach the Oshkosh Mosque about local land marking when they sought National Register nomination. Ms. Brabender Mattox replied affirmatively and stated that it was the best way to preserve a property. Mr. Ulrich stated that the property could be a candidate at least for an historic plaque. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that hopefully 404 W New York could be a third landmark and that the Commission could approach the Oshkosh Mosque about doing the same. Mr. Cummings stated that the property could be a candidate for a bronze marker descriptor with some of the Commission budget secured earlier this year. 5. 716 E Irving Avenue – Historic Plaque Application – Kristopher Ulrich – Discussion/Action Ms. Brabender Mattox had Mr. Ulrich explain the item. Mr. Ulrich stated that this was his application and that it was hopefully the first step in the process of doing more research towards maybe working on an historic district for Irving Avenue or around Hazel. He went through the process and submitted a brief narrative and pictures. The home was built in 1936 for Reuben Koeser and his family. Mr. Ulrich told the story of how Mr. Koeser’s grandson visited to see the house and shared stories of the property, its construction, etc. Mr. Ulrich did research at the library and based his application on the architectural style as Tudor Revival. He highlighted some of the key architectural features of the home. He had not replaced any of the windows and most except for a half dozen were original windows. Mr. Ulrich stated that the architectural style was more significant than the people that lived there. He explained that he lived across from a William Waters home that was modified throughout the years and was now a triplex. He then offered to take questions. Mr. Smith asked how long Mr. Ulrich had owned the property. Mr. Ulrich stated that he would be there 10 years in 2023. He had purchased the property in 2013. The home had previously seen some neglect so Mr. Ulrich purchased it with the intention of using his woodworking skills to restore it. He had completed some work inside and was working on some exterior features. He stated that his family had no intention of moving. He stated that he wanted to work on the roof and windows. He would start with the roof and work his way down. He explained some of the photographs of the house. He restored some of the woodwork and plaster. Mr. Jacklin stated that his home had windows similar to Mr. Ulrich’s with the pulleys and weights. He asked Mr. Ulrich if Mr. Ulrich had similar weights. Mr. Ulrich stated that he had the cords and weights. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if Mr. Ulrich looked into National/State Register nomination for the home. Mr. Ulrich replied that he had not as he did not think it was eligible because it lacked association with significant people. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she was in touch with Jason Tish of the SHPO regarding a home on Algoma Boulevard. Mr. Tish had sought Ms. Brabender Mattox’s input on the eligibility of 530 Algoma Boulevard. The state later determined that 530 Algoma was eligible. Mr. Wiley showed the 530 Algoma property. Ms. Brabender Mattox had Mr. Wiley look up the 530 Algoma property and the 716 E Irving property on the Wisconsin Historical Society website. Mr. Ulrich stated that some of the information on his property was incorrect. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that Mr. Ulrich could tell the Wisconsin Historical Society if information required updating on the site. Mr. Ulrich asked if it was worth pursuing a National Register nomination for his property. He stated that he did not think it was. He was open if the Commission disagreed. He stated that his home was rather small. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that sometimes the people who lived at the property and the history were more important than the physical size. Mr. Ulrich stated that he would be willing to do additional research and work with the Historical Society if the Commission thought it was worth it to pursue the National/State Register nominations. Mr. Ulrich stated that he could also start looking at additional properties from the area of the 500 to 700 block of Irving and assist owners in doing research on these for a potential historic district. Mr. Cummings asked if perhaps Mr. Ulrich would want to include Boyd Street from Irving to Parkway. Mr. Ulrich stated that he could look at this area. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked for a motion. The Commission voted 7-0-1 to approve an historic plaque for Mr. Ulrich’s home. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley to take the roll. Mr. Wiley took the roll. (Stoll Olthoff/Cummings) – Ulrich – Abstain. Ms. Stoll Olthoff asked Mr. Ulrich what he wanted to put on his plaque. Mr. Ulrich stated that he would consider the Koeser House in honor of Reuben Koeser or 219 Irving for the original address. He had interest in maybe mounting the plaque on a boulder rather than the house itself or on one of the large pillars. The Commissioners were supportive of mounting on a pillar or a stone. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that Mr. Ulrich would work with Alexa Naudziunas who would take over interim Landmarks duties with Mr. Wiley leaving. After discussion concluded on the 716 E Irving plaque item, Ms. Brabender Mattox presented all of the Commissioners with copies of the second edition of A Field Guide to American Houses by Virginia McAlester which she purchased for the Commissioners. She had previously presented Commissioners with the first edition of the book. She noted that the book was a valuable resource for the Commission to look up different housing types and styles when discussing these. Commissioners thanked Ms. Brabender Mattox. 6. Building Permit Review Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if the property at 434 Church Avenue was the residence of the owner or a rental. Mr. Wiley showed the Assessor information that suggested it was a rental. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that if properties were owner occupied versus rentals this would have different ramifications for tax credits. Ms. Brabender Mattox mentioned the home at 647 Jackson Street and stated that she was emotionally attached to the home because it was the home of Charlie Burgess who was Professor of Chemical Engineering at UW Madison. He was a teacher, researcher, and industrialist. Mr. Burgess started the Chemical Engineering department in Madison. She stated that the house had been scrapped and used for money. It was significant for who lived there and a William Waters home. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley if he was working with Carmen Shaw. Mr. Wiley stated that he had not been recently. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she had a property on Algoma Boulevard and that initially the Commission had missed her roof project. Ms. Brabender Mattox thanked Mr. Wiley for ferreting out the permits. She stated that many people did not have a clue that they were in historic districts and the permit review helped with reaching out. 7. Social Media – Discussion/Action Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley for an update on social media. Mr. Wiley stated that he had posted images for the 1523 N Main plaque presentation and Smith School celebration on the Facebook page. He stated that additional events such as a plaque presentation and tour of 907 Washington Avenue would be great opportunities for posting. She asked Commissioners that had ideas to send them to staff. Mr. Wiley stated that Ms. Naudziunas was active on Facebook and also had ideas for posting and sharing material on the page. 8. WHS Commissioner Training – Chapter 7 Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if everyone had a chance to look at the training. She stated that Marshfield’s Historic Preservation Commission was doing the same training. She stated that the chapter included for this month was more legalistic and emphasized being impartial. The sign discussion from earlier in the meeting was an example of where the Commission needed to ensure it had established rules that were applied evenly for anyone that came in. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that it was important to have a checklist and guidelines to be consistent. Currently the city did not have special design standards for historic structures. The only ones were the basic zoning standards currently in place. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that the Commission should be guided by the national standards which could be included in Commissioner Packets. The standards would primarily apply to local landmarks. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that there was a benefit to Mr. Elannani coming to Landmarks in the Oshkosh Mosque scenario as he otherwise might not have been aware of some information. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that for page 2 (Decision Making) it was important to get all of the information and not rush a decision. If property owners did not like Landmarks’ decision they could apply to the City Council or in some jurisdictions to court. Mr. Jacklin asked Ms. Brabender Mattox if in her tenure she ever ran into a situation where someone was not satisfied with a Commission decision. Ms. Brabender Mattox answered that for the Merilyn Smith house there were no issues as the owner kept what they had. For the Granary the owners did not want to apply but they wanted to use historic building codes and keep the historic nature so in applying for land marking the owners were able to use the historic code but they had to continue coming back to Landmarks for review. Ms. Stoll Olthoff stated that she needed to leave. She thanked Ms. Brabender Mattox for the book and thanked Mr. Wiley for his service. Ms. Stoll Olthoff left at 4:26 pm. 9. Commissioner Statements a. 1523 N Main Plaque Presentation – October 15th Ms. Brabender Mattox thanked Mr. Wiley for organizing the event and stated that the event was fantastic with the owner and her friends and neighbors that were there. Mr. Ulrich stated that a neighbor of 1523 N Main was now interested in a plaque. b. Smith School Event – October 15th Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that the event went very well and that she had the idea of doing an article for the WAHPC Newsletter. c. 1010 Bay Shore Drive – Abraham Briggs Bowen House Ms. Brabender Mattox asked how many people were by this house recently or had seen the pictures. Mr. Cummings stated that he was by the property numerous times a day. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if the owners had ripped off the side porch. Mr. Cummings stated that the side porch appeared to be intact but clearly the owners were not doing what they initially said they were going to in maintaining the original porch. Mr. Cummings stated that the property was owned by a rental landlord. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that it was important for staff to actually see what owners/applicants were planning to do rather than just take applicants at their word. She asked why it was necessary for a banister after 165 years without one and who insisted on the banister. Mr. Wiley replied that since the property was on the National Register, it seemed to be similar case- wise to the Morgan House. He recalled how he, Mr. Cummings, and John Zarate had discussed replacing the Morgan House railing and that Inspections had some flexibility to allow replacement or restoration of historic railings with matching railings based on historic documentation such as drawings or photographs. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she would like to see the whole banister taken off at 1010 Bay Shore. She stated that one did not see the height with the banister and Italianate was all height. She asked if it could still be rectified and who to talk to. Mr. Wiley stated that it would have to be Kelly Nieforth or Mark Rohloff or going to the Council and getting her view out there. Mr. Wiley stated that he did not issue the permit but initially talked to the applicant at the counter. The applicant came back weeks later but worked with another staff person. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked who the Commission could talk to that could make a difference. Mr. Wiley stated that Mr. Lyons and Ms. Nieforth wanted to have a public process in order to revise the ordinance. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that in talking with Jason Tish at SHPO it was not necessary to re-write the ordinance. Mr. Wiley suggested a meeting with Mr. Tish, Landmarks, Mr. Lyons, and Ms. Nieforth so they could all discuss and hear the same thing. Ms. Brabender Mattox recalled Mr. DeRose coming to Oshkosh previously and Mr. DeRose only recommended a few minor changes to the ordinance when we visited. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that Landmarks was simply advisory with something like Bay Shore but the rest of the city would blame Landmarks. d. Chief Oshkosh Project Update Ms. Brabender Mattox mentioned the long timeframe of this project and process. She stated that the Menominee had always been peaceful people and that this was their history and heritage. She stated that she was not prepared for the direction the project took. She thought Rebecca Comfort was a leveling, calm influence at the workshop with Landmarks and the Menominee. Ms. Comfort treated everyone fairly and gave everyone chances to speak. She stated that Ms. Comfort reached out to David Grignon about facilitating the meeting and he agreed. She asked Commissioners for their reactions to the process and stated that last night it ended well at the Council meeting. Mr. Jacklin stated that he thought in the end it turned out pretty good given all the back and forth trying to get the wording of the fifth plaque changed. He felt bad that the Menominee had to come down multiple times. Ms. Feld stated that if the workshop could have happened sooner in the process the project could have gone much more quickly. She was happy it was passed and expected as much at the Council. Mr. Cummings stated that never once did anyone say thank you Mr. Heaney. No one ever thanked him and he was the one that came up with the $5,000 and started the project. Mr. Cummings stated that Mr. Heaney was never acknowledged. He had a vision for a plaque to honor Chief Oshkosh and his accomplishments. Mr. Ulrich stated that for the record, he would like to thank Mr. Heaney for starting the Chief Oshkosh project with Mr. Cummings. Ms. Feld stated that in the future if the Commission decided to do a project with the University someone from this Commission needed to be present at every meeting because things could become political very quickly. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that it was the biggest weakness of the process that there were meetings where Mr. Cummings or Mr. Wiley were present but no one else from the Commission was there. She stated that Mr. Wiley put together a timeline which was helpful during the process. She stated that she spoke last at the Council meeting as she was not sure how the discussion would go. Many people spoke with prepared comments at Council. She was not prepared for the tribe to be there. She stated that the saving grace was that the words healing, hope, education, and dialogue were used in the revisions to the fifth plaque text. She stated that she told the tribe that this was their healing for the weight of hundreds of years of pain and loss and that the tribe acknowledged this. She stated that she thanked those involved including the tribe and when the Indians left each one came up and hugged her and stated that they would keep in touch. Mr. Jacklin stated that the Menominee members each shook the hands of each council person after the decision was made. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that the Commissioners had all grown and needed to weigh if they were going to take on a project. Ms. Feld stated that in the Northwestern the article included a quote that stated the next project the Menominee would work on was the design of the signage with City staff. She asked who was responsible for the next steps. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she saw the next step as two government entities working together. Mr. Cummings stated that the project started as a very noble project with Mr. Heaney but quickly became political. He stated that bronze was very expensive and had character maximums. Mr. Jacklin stated that in the Channel 5 report they stated that the City had allocated $20,000 for the project and asked where this money was coming from. Commissioners stated that they were aware of the $5,000 from Mr. Heaney. Mr. Wiley stated that city departments would look at cost, installation, and long-term maintenance of the signage. Bronze would hold up well but cost much more up front. All of these were factors that required consideration. Mr. Cummings suggested that the Museum be involved in the design of the plaques. Mr. Ulrich apologized for not making the earlier meeting. e. WHS Fall Conference for Local History and Historic Preservation – October 2021 Ms. Brabender Mattox asked how many people participated in the conference. She asked Mr. Ulrich one thing he remembered. Mr. Ulrich stated that he attended the session on digitizing/cataloguing things and the way they were doing it he was happy with. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Jacklin for his recollections. Mr. Jacklin stated that the “Building a Digital Readiness Community of Practice” session stood out for him. Wisconsin had a vast amount of history online. He liked this session. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings stated that he had horrible reception. He stated that the one he remembered was the person from the Galloway House in Fond du Lac. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked which one stood out to Mr. Wiley. Mr. Wiley stated that the session with Liz Arbuckle stood out. Mr. Cummings thanked Mr. Wiley and left at 5:06 pm. Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that Ms. Arbuckle was a professor of Native American History. She stated that Ms. Arbuckle was positive and that she would like to watch the presentation again. She explained that Ms. Arbuckle was a teacher while some people were lecturers. A teacher connects while a lecturer gives. Ms. Brabender Mattox recommended that Commissioners watch the session. f. 907 Washington Avenue – Update Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley for an update. Mr. Wiley stated that he had connected with the owner and she had decided on a proof but that staff just needed her payment to put the plaque into production. He stated that the owner could work with Ms. Naudziunas who he had included on emails regarding the plaque. 10. Agenda Items for Next Meeting (December 8th, 2021: 3 PM in City Hall Room 203) a. Merrill School – Kristopher Ulrich Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Ulrich about Merrill School. Mr. Ulrich explained that he just wanted to see if the Commission wanted to make a last-ditch effort to save the existing school. He asked if the Commission wanted to work with the University, Housing Authority, etc. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she had spoken with someone who thought it was good the item was not on the agenda. She stated that people in positions of authority were having discussions and that maybe by December Landmarks would have something. Mr. Ulrich stated that he planned to commission Leif Larson on a project to do paintings of Merrill and Webster Stanley schools and present these to the district. Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that Merrill School would be renamed. She was expecting an email from Dave Gundlach of the school district. A survey would be made public for input. She planned to get the survey to the neighborhood associations so they could be involved. She stated that it would be city-wide and emphasized the school district getting involved with the people. Mr. Ulrich asked if Ms. Brabender Mattox knew what they would rename Webster. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she did not know about Webster. 11. Outstanding Issues Ms. Brabender Mattox asked about items for the next meeting. Mr. Wiley stated that Merrill could remain on if the Commission wanted it. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked that 404 W New York remain on. She reminded the Commission that she provided a list of surveyed eligible properties for the registers. She asked Commissioners to go through this. She stated that the survey was a working document that should be used to determine where the Commission would go next. She stated that if something was not eligible to not give up. She wanted to talk with the City Manager to see what direction he wanted to go with the Lakeshore site. She wanted to build awareness of the land here and thousands of years of history. Ms. Brabender Mattox thanked Mr. Wiley and he thanked the Commissioners for all of their work. Ms. Brabender Mattox thanked Mr. Wiley for working with the Commission for close to five years and writing minutes and the time spent after hours working with the Commission. She stated that she was grateful. She believed Mr. Wiley had gained a lot of good experience that he could take to Marshfield. Mr. Wiley agreed that he had gained much experience. Mr. Ulrich stated that he was happy for Mr. Wiley and Mr. Jacklin congratulated him. Mr. Wiley stated that he appreciated everything the Commissioners had done and their involvement in the community. He stated that he had learned a lot from them and enjoyed working with them. He stated that he was grateful for the opportunities and experiences and would miss working with the Commission. He stated that he would provide his contact information to the Commission. 12. Adjournment Mr. Ulrich made a motion to adjourn and Mr. Jacklin seconded. Meeting adjourned at 5:28 pm (6-0). Recorded by: Steven Wiley, AICP, Associate Planner