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HomeMy WebLinkAboutLandmarks Minutes 09-08-21CITY OF OSHKOSH LANDMARKS COMMISSION Minutes September 8th, 2021 PRESENT: Shirley Brabender Mattox, Steve Cummings, Gerald Jacklin, Paulette Feld, Sara Stichert, Kristopher Ulrich EXCUSED: Nikki Stoll Olthoff, Andrew Smith ABSENT: Bill Miller STAFF AND OTHERS: Steven Wiley, Mark Lyons, Alexa Naudziunas, Rich Green (owner of 404 W New York Avenue) 1. Call to Order Mr. Jacklin called the meeting to order at 2:13 p.m. and a quorum was declared present. 2. Approval of August 11th, 2021 Meeting Minutes Mr. Jacklin asked the Commission if there were any revisions for the August meeting minutes. No Commissioners had any revisions for the minutes so the Commission voted 4-0 to approve the minutes as written (Ulrich/Stichert). Mr. Jacklin asked Ms. Feld and Ms. Stichert if they were both two new Landmarks Commissioners. Ms. Feld and Ms. Stichert replied affirmatively. 3. 440 N Main Street – Mural Application Review – Discussion/Action Mr. Jacklin asked if anyone wanted to start the mural discussion. Mr. Ulrich stated that he had a couple of comments on the item. He asked about the description stating that the mural would be painted directly onto the concrete or onto the building halfway down on the application. He asked for clarification on this. He stated that if the mural was painted on concrete or another material placed over the brick it was less of an issue for Landmarks but the information from previous State Historic Preservation Architect Mark Buechel cautioned against painting on historic masonry. He asked if Landmarks would run into issues with this because it was unpainted historic masonry and he did not want to destroy that side of the building. He complemented the City on the mini mural project for its use of small vinyl murals which were an alternative material. He stated that he wanted to have more details and know what discussion was had with Leif Larson prior to the painting of the mural on the side of the New Moon building. Ms. Brabender Mattox rejoined the meeting at 2:17 pm. Mr. Lyons stated that the lower portion of the 440 N Main building was concrete. Mr. Ulrich asked Mr. Lyons to confirm that a portion of the proposed mural would extend onto the brick. Mr. Lyons confirmed that a small portion of the mural would extend onto the brick. Mr. Ulrich asked if there was anything that could be put up onto the brick so that the artist would not be painting and sealing the brick. Ms. Stichert referred to Mr. Buechel’s information and stated that Mr. Buechel offered suggestions. Mr. Jacklin asked if the mural intended to go above the cement. Mr. Ulrich replied affirmatively. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if the mural would involve painting onto the masonry. Mr. Lyons answered that this was correct. Mr. Ulrich stated that if the Commission was to provide feedback he would suggest recommending against painting on historic masonry/sealing the brick. He asked if this was moving forward with or without Landmarks anyways. Mr. Lyons stated that as most of the Commission knew, Landmarks had limited authority in these matters. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that there was no concern with painting on the concrete portion of the building. She asked Mr. Lyons if he could tell when the concrete was installed. Mr. Lyons stated that staff had tried to track down when the concrete was installed but was not able to pin down an exact date. The best staff could determine was that the concrete was on the building since at least the early 2000s and was potentially installed when the adjacent building was removed in order to shore up the remaining building. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that this did not come to the Landmarks Commission because the Commission would have recommended restoring the wall with the same cream city brick as used on the top portion. Ms. Feld stated that she remembered the concrete being there since at least the 90s. She stated that she saw much social media activity already so was not sure what the repercussions were if Landmarks said no to the project because the artist was known. Mr. Ulrich asked if the better constructive suggestion was to say to go ahead and paint on the concrete but install wood panels for the portion of the mural that would extend onto the brick so that this would fix the issue of a portion of the mural extending back a foot or half a foot and prevent painting directly onto the brick. He stated that this would solve two problems with one solution. Mr. Jacklin asked if wood would work. Mr. Ulrich stated that it would prevent sealing of the brick. Ms. Feld stated that she had read the suggestions from Mr. Buechel as opposed to painting on the wall and that given the concrete extending out beyond the brick Mr. Ulrich’s suggestion seemed doable. Mr. Jacklin explained that for moisture concerns a space of at least two inches should exist to prevent holding moisture in. He asked Mr. Lyons if requiring the mural to extend an inch or two beyond the building would be possible. Mr. Lyons stated that this was something the Commission could suggest. He stated that the artist could paint directly on the building or extend the mural on panels. Both could be options for the artist. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that there was airplane cloth and other fabrics and materials used for murals such as some downtown. These treatments did not trap moisture and Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that the Commission did not want to set a precedent. She stated that the mural on New Moon was done without oversight and was strongly disapproved by the State Architect when he found out. She stated that the proposed mural was large and that the artist would be working on it for some time. Ms. Brabender Mattox was sure the artist had worked on materials other than masonry. She cautioned against Landmarks approving the mural as proposed and therefore setting a precedent. She stated that the primary concern of Landmarks was protecting the historic building. Mr. Green stated that he was not on the commission but would not touch the brick. He would put up canvas or boards. Mr. Ulrich was less concerned with the concrete as it was not historically significant. He recommended using vinyl, breathable fabric, or panels as opposed to painting directly on masonry. He stated that if the artist would do this, the Commission would be satisfied and it would maintain the integrity of the building. He emphasized good stewardship of the building so that it would not be torn down before necessary. He stated that this was a fair compromise for the artist and beautification committee. The mural could move forward while protecting the building. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if the artist was available. Mr. Wiley stated that the artist was not present. Mr. Lyons explained that this was brought forward by the Business Improvement District (BID) which commissioned the artist to do the project. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if Mr. Wiley wanted an action or decision. Mr. Wiley stated that this was correct and Landmarks could make a recommendation. He asked for a motion and a second. Mr. Lyons asked Mr. Ulrich to phrase his recommendations into a motion. Mr. Ulrich motioned that Landmarks support the mural being painted directly on to the concrete but instead of painting onto the brick, apply either a vinyl surface or something that is breathable, particularly wood, and continue the mural onto that but do not paint onto the original brick in order to maintain the integrity of the building. Ms. Feld seconded. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if there was any more discussion. Ms. Feld asked if it was possible to put together some type of information like what was received from the historical society for people looking to put up a mural so they had the information ahead of time and were aware of the issues and questions that could arise. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that Mark Buechel was now out in Nebraska directing 13 states and his replacement was Paul Porter. She stated that there was an article in the WAHPC newsletter regarding murals and that Jason Tish with the historical society wrote this article. She explained that the historical society might come up with information that could be distributed around the state because many communities were doing murals. She said in Plymouth where they had 24 murals, many painted on historic masonry, she contacted the City Administrator because 4 more were planned for the summer. Plymouth was no longer doing murals on historic masonry but rather on wood panels. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that Ms. Feld’s point was a good one. Mr. Cummings arrived at 2:27 pm. Mr. Cummings asked what building the proposed mural was going on. Mr. Green stated that it was the building across the parking lot from Gardinas. The Commission voted 6-0 to approve Mr. Ulrich’s motion (Ulrich/Feld). Mr. Lyons and Ms. Naudziunas left at 2:34 pm. 4. 404 W New York – Local Landmarking – Discussion/Action Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that this item has remained on the agenda for many months. She stated that the owner of 404 W New York Avenue, Rich Green, was present. She asked Mr. Green to tell the Commission about himself. Mr. Green thanked the Commission for having him. He explained that the house was built in 1902 by Frank Gates, then the president of the Diamond Match Company. His family was there not too terribly long until about 1920 and then the Sullivan family moved in. It was Frank and Georgiana Sullivan and they had three children, Don, George, and Ruth, Frank Sullivan founded the Triangle Manufacturing Company. Frank’s son Don was running Diamond Manufacturing when Mr. Green’s father, David Green, was working at the Axle at the time fresh out of UW-Madison with a degree in Mechanical Engineering. Don Sullivan said that he was planning to sell the 404 W New York property and David Green expressed interest in the property. Mr. Green moved into the property with his family in 1963. He and his family had possession of the house ever since. There were only three families that had lived at the house and all three respected the historical nature of the home. His mother was on the Auxiliary Museum Board and his father was president of the Optimist Club. His family did everything they could to preserve the historic integrity of the house. Mr. Green stated that he went to school in Chicago at Northwestern University, earned a degree in archeology, and moved to California where he started a business in Palo Alto and has been running it for 30 years. He was currently the president of the Palo Alto History Museum. He stated that he had experience with preservation, raising funds, creating a board, etc. He wanted to get involved in Oshkosh. He was planning to retire in Oshkosh. He currently owned the 404 W New York property. He was doing everything he could to preserve the house. He planned to install a new roof in two weeks. He had some paint work to do. The home was well preserved. He was passionate about Oshkosh history. Ms. Brabender Mattox thanked Mr. Green and explained that with local landmarking, the home would be designated as a structure that was important to Oshkosh. She explained that the home could qualify based on its builder Joseph T. Raycraft and architect William Klappbroth. The home was also significant as a residence of Frank Gates of Diamond Match and the Sullivans of Triangle Manufacturing. Oshkosh products were known for their quality and the house’s associations with significant figures in manufacturing contributed to its significance. Mr. Green explained that his father built the manufacturing division at Oshkosh Truck. His father later became the product manager and had 300 engineers report to him and was responsible for many of the company’s significant designs such as the inverted windshield, the front discharge cement mixer, the Patriot missile launcher, etc. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she had spoken with Mr. Green about local landmarking and landmarking was the strongest form of protection for historic properties. She had been encouraging Commissioners to look at the list of potential properties that could qualify as significant historically. She stated that there were properties on the National Register that could be demolished in 30 days. She stated that Mr. Green was supportive of local landmarking. The two existing landmarked properties were the James House on High Avenue and the Granary which was the HP Schmidt Milling Company. The 404 W New York property would be the third local landmark. Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that Oshkosh was way behind other cities such as Green Bay with over 100 local landmarks, Madison, Milwaukee, Janesville, Evansville, etc. The 404 W New York property could help the Commission jump-start a local landmarking program. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked for questions and comments. Mr. Cummings asked why Oshkosh was so far behind other cities with local landmarking. Ms. Brabender Mattox recalled talking with the owner of the fire station on 6th Avenue which was restored by Terry Laib. The owner had asked what she would get out of local landmarking. Ms. Brabender Mattox had said that she had informed her that local landmarks were important to the City and somebody else could not buy the building and just tear it down. She stated that when talking about local landmarking the Commission was not discussing the interior but rather what was visible from the right of way. The Commission would not tell Mr. Green what to do with the interior but rather the exterior. Mr. Cummings asked if the owner of the property had to agree to local landmarking and if the Commission could landmark public buildings such as the library. Ms. Brabender Mattox replied that the Commission should be landmarking public buildings such as the Grand Opera House, City Hall, and other buildings that were historic. Mr. Cummings suggested that this be a priority so that the public could see the value to local landmarking regardless of how the state and federal levels designated properties. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that if Landmarks approved the local landmarking it would then go to the Plan Commission and ultimately to the City Council. Mr. Cummings suggested that the Morgan House could be a candidate. Mr. Green noted that he was passionate about historic preservation and wanted to take a leadership role and this was his reason for pursuing landmarking. He stated that if owners did not have passion for preservation he could not see any additional benefit. If he was not passionate he would likely be included to say “no thank you” to landmarking his property. He explained that it would be beneficial if the commission could come back to potential landmarkees such as himself, express their appreciation and explain the benefits to interested property owners. He stated that currently he could not think of any additional benefits of landmarking but if the Commission could find something this would be helpful. Ms. Brabender Mattox suggested donating historic plaques to any locally landmarked properties. She explained that Mr. Wiley had worked with former Community Development Director Allen Davis on potential incentives. She asked Mr. Wiley if he had developed incentives any further. Mr. Wiley stated that the one current incentive was the Historic Rehab loan program but this required a match from the property owner. He explained that if a property owner requested $10,000 of City funds the City would invest $10,000. If a property owner asked for more than $10,000 the City would require a 2:1 match and it was a deferred payment loan. Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that City incentives for local landmarks were more important than for National/State Register properties because tax credits were available for properties on the registers. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley if he did the paperwork for an incentive. Mr. Wiley stated that for the historic rehab loan program staff did complete the paperwork. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley to discuss City historic incentives with new Community Development Director Kelly Nieforth. She asked if Ms. Nieforth was in on historic incentive discussions. Mr. Wiley answered that Ms. Nieforth was not involved because Mr. Davis and Mr. Lyons were involved at the time. Mr. Green explained that in Palo Alto, California they had PAST (Palo Alto Stanford Heritage). He stated that whenever a property crossed the 100 year old mark it received a plaque. There were probably hundreds of these properties there. He stated that it was a mark of great pride to receive a plaque and that a formal ceremony occurred for these. He suggested recognizing the investment property owners put into their historic homes to maintain them because often the required level of investment was significant. Mr. Cummings explained that Landmarks Council Liaison Bill Miller had requested $5,000 to establish a budget for Landmarks. He suggested that perhaps the commission use some of the funds and rather than require property owners to pay for their plaques the plaques could be donated. He asked if perhaps the commission could reach out to eligible property owners and ask them to apply. Ms. Feld supported Mr. Green’s idea of providing plaques for properties over 100 years old. She stated that there would likely be homes that were not historic and it was not possible for her to completely restore her own home. However, she did things to help restore it however possible. She stated that this would help provide recognition for historic property owners. Mr. Green agreed with Ms. Feld and explained that the Palo Alto brass plaque program had gone viral. Ms. Brabender Mattox suggested having guidelines if the Commission pursued a similar plaque program because some houses were no longer historic. She asked Mr. Wiley to put the potential program on a future agenda. She also suggested that she and Mr. Wiley meet with Ms. Nieforth to go over the work Mr. Wiley did with Mr. Davis on historic incentives. She explained that people visiting Oshkosh often came to visit old Oshkosh and that this plaque program could help with tourism. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if there was further discussion. Mr. Jacklin commented that he grew up in Hartford, WI and that there were not many buildings there comparable to Oshkosh. He stated that Oshkosh had a good starting point. Mr. Cummings noted that many old churches existed in Oshkosh and that the Commission should consider these when looking at potential properties to landmark. There were many properties that were not homes. Ms. Brabender Mattox agreed and recommended starting with Mr. Green’s property today and churches and public buildings tomorrow to grow the program. The Commission voted 6-0 to approve moving forward with the local landmarking of the 404 W New York property owned by Rich Green (Ulrich/Cummings). Ms. Brabender Mattox thanked Mr. Green and stated that Mr. Green could fill out the local landmark application which would come back to Landmarks, then to Plan Commission, and finally the Common Council. Mr. Green thanked the Commission and explained that the move to landmark historic structures was an important move to maintain the integrity of the city and build historic and civic pride. 5. Building Permit Review Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if any items jumped off the page. Mr. Ulrich stated that the first item with several window replacements and asked if the owners were just going with vinyl windows. Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that this was a house on Wisconsin and that the owners were spending $27,000 on replacement windows. She said that one of her dreams was to start a business that specialized in restoring historic windows so fewer old windows went to the landfill. Old growth timber could often last 200 years but was often tossed aside. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she could not get tax credits for the work on Wisconsin. Mr. Ulrich stated that there was not much work that appeared tax credit worthy. Ms. Brabender Mattox noted the $16,000 worth of work proposed on a Hazel Street property. She asked Mr. Wiley if the bathroom work could qualify for tax credits. Mr. Wiley answered that he did not think the work would qualify because it was replacement of fixtures. Mr. Cummings explained that none of the work would qualify because it was interior work. 6. Social Media – Discussion/Action Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley for an update. Mr. Wiley stated that he did post information regarding the Landmarks meeting and the 1321 Porter Avenue plaque presentation. He stated that an upcoming plaque presentation would occur for 1523 N Main Street and this would provide another great opportunity for material. Ms. Brabender Mattox emphasized that the Facebook page needed constant activity. She suggested posting material on Mr. Green’s house. She had just provided Mr. Green a photograph from around 1915. She suggested doing a series of posts explaining that the house was being considered for local landmarking and explaining who Mr. Raycraft and Mr. Klappbroth were. Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that she and Mr. Green could work together and get Mr. Wiley the material for posting. 12. Commissioner Statements Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that there were two new commissioners. She asked Ms. Feld and Ms. Stichert to introduce themselves. Ms. Feld introduced herself and explained that she worked at UW- Oshkosh in the library for 35 years and retired six years ago. She stated that she and Ms. Stichert were both interested in history and old houses. She served on the Humanities Council, minored in history, had involvement in various things and believed Landmarks was a good place to land for a while. She currently served on the United Way board, the board for the UW-Oshkosh Retiree Association, and the Advocap board. The Commission welcomed Ms. Feld. Ms. Stichert introduced herself. She grew up in Sheboygan but came to Oshkosh for school and never left. She had lived in Oshkosh for 44 years and Ms. Feld had purchased their current home in 2008. She had researched the home’s history and it was built in 1898. Sometime after the 1930s to 1950s it became a rental and was severely neglected for a lot of time. She and Ms. Feld were working on restoring the home. They had removed 1970s carpeting and then 1930s tiling. There was tarpaper under the tiling. She and Ms. Feld sanded many of the floors and did the work themselves. They had finished the projects that they personally were planning to do. They would likely hire someone to do some outstanding work. The front steps had wrought iron rails but Ms. Stichert did not think they were appropriate so she researched and created some flat-sawn balusters for the front steps. They did have their house resided in 2018 but tried to honor the design of the house. She graduated from UW- Oshkosh with a degree in Library Science and started working at the library 5 years later. She worked there for over thirty years. She believed she could bring research help to the Commission in addition to her interest in history. The Commission welcomed Ms. Stichert. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she believed Ms. Feld and Ms. Stichert could serve as great resources for Mr. Wiley on material for the Facebook page. a. Historic Building Code Discussion – Steve Cummings Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that the historic building code applied to commercial buildings and that the state needed to do something for residential buildings. Mr. Cummings stated that this was something that would require working with realtors’ associations. Currently when listing a house there were not many options for example when listing age. For older properties one option was seventy five years or older which was a huge proportion of the housing stock. Mr. Cummings stated that codes needed a distinction in how they treated pre and post-Depression and WWII properties. There were significant structural differences between the two. Mr. Cummings explained that this needed to start at the state. He had talked to Paul Porter at the state and Mr. Porter wanted to come up and give a presentation on historic tax credits. This could be a collaboration between Landmarks, the historical society, and maybe the Neenah and Menasha historical societies. b. 1523 N Main Plaque Presentation Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley for an update. Mr. Wiley explained that Landmarks had approved this plaque earlier in the year and that he was in touch with Audrey Spanbauer who was the owner of the property. Ms. Spanbauer was free on Fridays from 3:45 pm on so Mr. Wiley would send out a poll to the Commissioners to see what would work for a presentation. He would then get this on the calendar. c. WHS Fall Conference for Local History and Historic Preservation – October 2021 Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that this would be a three day conference and that she had been going for many years. The 2020 conference was virtual and Mr. Jacklin, Ms. Stoll Olthoff, Mr. Cummings, and Ms. Brabender Mattox all attended. It would occur this year from October 20th through the 22nd. The registration fee was $50 for members of the WHS and last year the City covered registration costs for Commissioners who attended. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley if he could find out for this year if the City would cover the costs. Mr. Wiley stated that he could find out. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley if he sent the Commission the WAHPC newsletter. Mr. Wiley replied that he had. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that in the newsletter there were three pages on the conference. The conference was scheduled to have 34 sessions. She asked Commissioners to let Mr. Wiley know of their interest in attending and Mr. Wiley to let the Commission know as soon as he knew whether the City would cover the costs of attending. 13. Agenda Items for Next Meeting (October 13th, 2021: 3 PM in City Hall Room 203) Ongoing items such as the Longfellow Lintel and 404 W New York landmarking projects would be back on the meeting agenda for October. Additionally it was requested to include the plaque program for local landmarks on the agenda. 14. Outstanding Issues Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if anyone had any additional items for discussion. She noted Mr. Wiley’s email regarding the Chief Oshkosh discussion that was scheduled for 3 pm and that the Commission was no longer meeting on this today. Mr. Wiley stated that open meetings laws required that the meeting be noticed and so Diane Moran in the City Manager’s office had sent an email asking of Commissioners’ availability. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if everyone was agreeable to meeting with the other committees on the question of the Chief Oshkosh project. All commissioners answered affirmatively. Mr. Cummings asked who would facilitate the Chief Oshkosh meeting. Mr. Wiley replied that Mark Rohloff would facilitate the discussion. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if there was any information on the plaque for 907 Washington Avenue. Mr. Wiley stated that he had emailed the owner and had not heard back from her. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if the owner might want the date of the home’s construction, the original owner, and architect. Mr. Wiley stated that he would run all of this by the owner. Mr. Cummings stated that he would text the owner and have her get with Mr. Wiley to move forward. Mr. Ulrich stated that the Commission would have his application for a plaque in next month’s meeting. He had enjoyed doing research on his property at the library. He stated that he intended to do it on other properties. Mr. Jacklin stated that for social media it was not necessary to reinvent the wheel. The Commission could go back to the minutes and find two or three major things they voted on or took action on at a meeting and look at these for creating material for posting. 15. Adjournment Mr. Cummings made a motion to adjourn and Mr. Jacklin seconded. Meeting adjourned at 3:27 pm (5- 0). Recorded by: Steven Wiley, AICP, Associate Planner