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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutesCITY OF OSHKOSH LANDMARKS COMMISSION Minutes October 141h, 2020 PRESENT: Shirley Brabender Mattox, Nikki Stoll Olthoff, Deb Allison Aasby, Gerald Jacklin, (Meeting was held virtually via Webex and all attended via Webex) EXCUSED: Paul Arnold, Steve Cummings, Andrew Smith, Kristopher Ulrich ABSENT: Elizabeth Hintz STAFF AND OTHERS: Steven Wiley, Jeffrey Behnke (Owner, 1321 Porter Avenue) 1. Call to Order Ms. Brabender Mattox called the meeting to order at 3:08 p.m. and a quorum was declared present. 2. Approval of September 91h, 2020 Meeting Minutes Ms. Brabender Mattox asked the Commission if there were any revisions for the August meeting minutes. She asked about the meaning of the word kerning in the last line of the minutes on the second page. Mr. Wiley explained that kerning issues were issues of inconsistent spacing between characters. For Item 5 in the minutes, where the minutes stated that "Ms. Brabender Mattox and Mr. Cummings attended past hearings in Madison for nominations," Ms. Brabender Mattox noted that the hearings were nomination hearings. Where the minutes stated that "Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she had filled out the Smith School nomination questionnaire in two days," Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she assisted in doing the research and developer Tim Hess had completed the questionnaire. No other commissioners had any revisions so the Commission voted 4-0 to approve the minutes with the changes mentioned (Stoll Olthoff/Allison-Aasby). 3. Historic Plaque Application -1321 Porter Avenue - Jeffrey Behnke - Discussion Ms. Brabender Mattox welcomed Mr. Behnke and asked him when he became aware of the historic plaque program. Mr. Behnke replied that he first became aware of the program maybe a year or two previously on Facebook. He had seen that the William Doe House received a plaque and was the first residence in Oshkosh designed by William Waters. Ms. Brabender Mattox replied that before that Mr. Behnke had been doing his research on his property. Mr. Behnke affirmed that since 2013, the year he purchased the house, he had done his research. She asked him if he had done research before like this. He replied that he had done just a bit on his previous home which was on Sherman Road in the Town of Oshkosh. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Behnke if there was one criterion from the plaque brochure he believed his house fell under when he filled out his application. He replied that the main one was the Greek revival architecture which he realized was the simple form and not the full-fledged form. He stated that a good example would be the White House in Washington DC. He believed that the second category was that the house was owned by someone semi significant which was attorney Albert Norton. Mr. Behnke found out recently that Albert Norton had represented Mr. Robert McMillan, who was a significant lumberman in Oshkosh. Albert Norton s brother, Ebenezer Norton, was the justice of the peace representing Winnebago County for the Town of Algoma. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that if Albert Norton represented Robert McMillan, he was a top attorney. He would not have just dealt with minor cases. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if the other Commissioners had comments or questions for Jeffrey. Ms. Stoll Olthoff stated that she was impressed with the research and it was very detailed. Mr. Wiley stated that Paul Arnold was the Commission's Vice Chair and he was not able to attend the meeting but had shared some comments with Mr. Wiley ahead of time. Mr. Arnold had gone by the property at 1321 Porter and was very impressed with the research that was done. Where the house used to be was a savannah with seven large oak trees. However, a bank went in there and things have changed over there since the house was located there. Mr. Arnold had not determined a category under which the Commission might place the plaque but he did say that based on Mr. Behnke's research, he would be inclined to support a plaque. Mr. Arnold had stated that on the other hand, he could understand potential concerns with whether the Commission would be setting a precedent if the house indeed were not to fall under one of the categories. Mr. Wiley stated that the Commission would have to weigh in on this. Mr. Arnold emphasized that the research was very impressive. He stated that the photographs looked different from the house in person. Lastly, Mr. Arnold had told Mr. Wiley that he had not seen anything from the discussion in the September Landmarks minutes that would help in this case. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she had looked at the research Mr. Behnke had done and this was the type of research that Mr. Arnold, Harold Buchholz, and she would do. She stated that this was the type of research someone would do at two or three in the morning because they could not stop and would lose track of the time. She stated that she really wished that the Commission could claim this as Greek revival. Mr. Wiley then displayed images of Greek revival examples that Ms. Brabender Mattox had shared with him prior to the meeting. The images were of early basic Greek revival examples. She stated that for two of them the State Historical Society had commented on their significance because they were very early and were in the West Algoma neighborhood. Mr. Behnke's house was in the West Algoma neighborhood. She stated that these homes were part of the city's early history and the community had very few Greek revival homes left. She stated to Mr. Behnke that she was hoping that in his research he could connect with the people that owned the house back before it was moved. She suggested that he use the internet, do some research, and see if there were any relatives of the families that had lived there before the move. She suggested even looking just after the move or around 1951 or 1952. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she was looking at the house and wondering when the porch was put on. She stated that to her it looked like a late 1910s-early 1920s addition. She asked Mr. Behnke if his original siding was removed. He answered that he was not sure. He did know that there was aluminum siding and believed that it was put on in the 1990s. He found evidence supporting this. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that the other item was the windows. Mr. Behnke explained that there were vinyl windows and he would say they were installed around the 1990s. The only older windows were upstairs and the porch windows. He stated that the porch was enclosed sometime around 1890. He stated that there were some sash weight windows and instances of knob and tube wiring which would predate the 1930s. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that on the side of the house there were three narrow, long windows. She stated that traditionally the windows would not have been in that style. She had shown photographs so everyone could see the styles of windows used for the early basic Greek revival style. Mr. Behnke asked if Ms. Brabender Mattox was referring to the Porter Avenue side and the three windows there. She responded affirmatively and explained that they were the windows adjacent to the porch. Mr. Behnke stated that those windows were in the living room and that he would agree that those were likely not consistent with the style found on the original house. He stated that other than the Graf sons there was nobody living currently that had lived in his house. One of the sons was not even born before the house was moved. Mr. Behnke stated that he had asked the oldest Graf son whether he remembered the house before it was moved and Mr. Behnke never received an answer. Mr. Graf lived in Florida and Mr. Behnke never met him in person. The Graf sons did see the house pulled behind the truck during the process of moving it. They saw the house in transit but Mr. Behnke did not know of anyone living that had seen the house on its original lot. Ms. Brabender Mattox wished there was a photograph of the house on its original lot. Mr. Behnke stated that he too wished there was a photograph of the house and all he had was the aerial photograph that he submitted. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if Mr. Behnke was on any of the Oshkosh historic Facebook pages. She stated that there were people on the Facebook pages that were in their 80s and knowledgeable on local history. She emphasized that it would be exciting to see what the house was before the move. Mr. Behnke stated that he had put a lot of effort into finding such a photo and not found one yet. He had asked around and was a member on the Facebook pages. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Jacklin to weigh in. He stated that he was very impressed with the research. He stated that even if a plaque was not to work out it would be beneficial for Mr. Behnke to walk away with understanding of what it would require to restore the home to its historic state. Mr. Jacklin commended Mr. Behnke on his work to date. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if there was anything original on the interior left. Mr. Behnke stated that there was very little left on the interior. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked about the floors. Mr. Behnke stated that under the carpeting in one place he noticed an interesting diamond pattern on the wood flooring. He was not sure if it was original but had images. There were a couple of old wood doors but probably not original to 1865. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked the Commission for input. Ms. Stoll Olthoff asked for confirmation that the plaques were typically awarded only based on the exterior. Ms. Brabender Mattox replied affirmatively but that from the interior perhaps the Commission could determine what was original on the exterior. Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that the Commission was working on tightening up the plaque criteria and revising the application and brochure. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley to re -read Mr. Arnold's comments. Mr. Wiley stated that Mr. Arnold was inclined to support the plaque based on Mr. Behnke's extensive and impressive research. Mar. Arnold was not sure what category under which he could put the plaque. He could see why some Commissioners might be on the fence about the plaque but based on the research he would support it. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that the house was an early example than that it was originally part of West Algoma. Senator Sawyer had a house just east of the original location of Mr. Behnke's house. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that the house kind of tied in with the type of architecture shown in some of the other examples in her images. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked about next steps. She asked Mr. Wiley to send the Commission the criteria which were tightened up in the last month's discussion. The Commission would then review the criteria prior to the next meeting and determine which of the criteria would be applicable. Mr. Wiley stated that this was fine with him and asked if anyone else on the Commission wanted to weigh in. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Ms. Allison Aasby to weigh in. Ms. Allison Aasby stated that she was very impressed with the amount of time and effort that Mr. Behnke put in thus far and believed that Ms. Brabender Mattox's suggestion was a great next step for it. Mr. Jacklin stated that he supported the idea also and that it would set the Commission up well for the future. Ms. Stoll Olthoff agreed and stated that she would like the Commission to tighten up the qualifications and reevaluate after that. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley if he would like to touch base with Mr. Ulrich. Mr. Wiley stated that he would and that he did email Mr. Ulrich in advance of the October meeting because he wanted to verify whether Mr. Ulrich had any material for the packet. Mr. Wiley stated that he had not heard back except that Mr. Ulrich could not make the meeting so he would reach out prior to the November meeting. Mr. Wiley stated that otherwise, he would tighten the criteria up based on the feedback from the September meeting. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that it would be helpful to ensure that the Commission has the opportunity to examine the revised criteria prior to the next meeting and determine which category might apply. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Behnke if he noticed that in his area there were no other house like his. Mr. Behnke replied affirmatively. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that when she initially went by the property she thought perhaps it was the first house built in the neighborhood but when she found out that it was moved there, that explained the difference between Mr. Behnke's house and the remainder of the houses. She asked Mr. Behnke if he understood the next steps. Mr. Behnke stated that he understood that the Commission would work on the criteria and determine which category was applicable. She stated that the house was part of the history and that they just needed to determine where it fit in. Mr. Behnke stated that he understood the concern about the windows and siding. He did not know if the original siding was still underneath the aluminum siding. Ms. Brabender Mattox emphasized the value of old growth timber siding. Ms. Brabender Mattox thanked Mr. Behnke for attending. 4. Historic Plaque Criteria - Discussion/Action Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley if he had an update. Mr. Wiley stated that Mr. Ulrich had agreed to work on revising the criteria and application form. Mr. Wiley had not heard back from Mr. Ulrich. He stated that he would reach out to Mr. Ulrich. Mr. Wiley stated that if Mr. Ulrich was not able to revise the criteria, Mr. Wiley would do so prior to the next meeting based on the input provided at the September Landmarks meeting. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if this item would remain on the next Landmarks agenda. Mr. Wiley replied that the item would remain on the agenda. 5. Building Permit Review Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that the objective during the building permit review was that if the Commission found projects eligible for historic tax credits, to ensure that the owners were aware of tax credit programs. Owners could then take advantage of tax credits to move their projects forward. She mentioned the gravel driveway project at 612 Franklin Street. She stated that the only large items were the museum, which had to deal with the state. The museum was a public building, so the state had oversight there. She thanked Mr. Wiley for the building permit update. She stated that Mr. Cummings had an item on the agenda for 907 Washington Avenue and that the contractors were replacing the driveway there. She stated that in a number of situations people were moving back to Oshkosh and investing much money in historic properties. She stated that such projects could spur people down the street or block. Ms. Allison Aasby stated that at the previous night's Council meeting Pam Ruder of Oshkosh Healthy Neighborhoods had given a presentation. Oshkosh Healthy Neighborhoods had taken a property and rehabilitated it. They had torn down a previous garage and constructed a new garage. The interior of the property was also rehabilitated. Some of the neighbors in turn had improved elements of their properties and so it was a facelift for the neighborhood. Ms. Brabender Mattox replied that when people fixed up older homes the property values in turn went up. Ms. Brabender Mattox recommended that the City support historic preservation. Ms. Allison Aasby asked if for a scenario like Mr. Behnke's whether there was some other means of recognizing his work other than a plaque. She mentioned a medallion as an alternative. Ms. Brabender Mattox answered that the Commission did the annual Acanthus Awards except for 2020 due to the coronavirus situation. She stated that the awards were such an honor that at least three people included them in their obituaries. She stated that in Columbus there was a medallion provided much like the Oshkosh historic plaques. She explained that for the plaques, Landmarks did not want to issue them unless there was some sort of credibility behind them. Ms. Stoll Olthoff agreed and suggested that in Mr. Behnke's situation if a plaque was not approved, perhaps the commission could start doing more features on individual houses on the Landmarks website or Facebook page. She stated that she was on the Historic Oshkosh website and noted the examples of properties people could click on. 6. Historic Preservation Plan - Steven Wiley - Update Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley for an update on the Historic Preservation Plan. He explained that he was still working on the CLG subgrant application and had received three cost estimates from consultants. He stated that having cost estimates helped in obtaining more points during the application process. He stated that he would be interested in working with Ms. Brabender Mattox because in looking at David Buck's old files she was involved in previous CLG subgrant applications. She stated that the first year she did an application and sent out 20 RFPs and received back 5 responses. She did the communication. On the second application she and Mr. Buck worked together. She stated that she would be glad to work with Mr. Wiley. Mr. Wiley stated that he would meet with Planning Services Manager Mark Lyons and Community Development Director Allen Davis and connect with Ms. Brabender Mattox to submit the grant application prior to the next meeting. 7. Social Media - Discussion/Action Mr. Wiley provided an update and explained that he had been posting more material on the Facebook page. He stated that for example, he put out there that the October Landmarks meeting would be all virtual. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Ms. Stoll Olthoff to send anything she found to Mr. Wiley. Ms. Stoll Olthoff mentioned the upcoming 2020 WHS Historic Preservation Conference and stated that she and Ms. Brabender Mattox were signed up for that conference. She suggested that Mr. Wiley post something on the Facebook page regarding that conference. 8. Commissioner Statements a. 907 Washington Avenue - Steve Cummings Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley for information on this item. Mr. Wiley explained that 907 Washington Avenue was the property where Terry and Matt Laib were working on a major project. Mr. Cummings had seen the property recently and reached out to Mr. Wiley about doing a Landmarks tour of the property. Mr. Wiley had reached out to his supervisor and at this point the City did not want to sanction a Landmarks tour of the property given the COVID situation but Landmarks and staff could keep the tour in mind and coordinate it after the pandemic subsided. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that field trips were among the most valuable experiences of the commission. The Waite Grass Carpet Company was an example of an earlier tour. Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that the Schriber house was another example of a property the commission toured before it was moved. The Riverside Cemetery Chapel tour allowed the commission to learn about the chapel and its uses. b. WAHPC Membership and Newsletter - Shirley Brabender Mattox Ms. Brabender Mattox asked how many commissioners received the newsletter in their emails. She asked Mr. Wiley if he could update the Commission's membership for WAHPC. Mr. Wiley explained that he was in touch with WAHPC about paying the dues. He stated that WAHPC had informed him that the dues were complementary for the year and that the city could not pay without an invoice. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that Mr. Wiley just needed to fill out the form included with the newsletter. Mr. Wiley stated that completing the form would be simple. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that it would look good if Oshkosh paid the dues for 2020. She stated that the dues would be covered for two years in that case. Mr. Wiley stated that the City needed an invoice or something in writing to process the membership dues. c. WI Historical Society Local History and Historic Preservation Conference - October 21-23 (Virtual for 2020) - Shirley Brabender Mattox Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that for anyone on the Commission attending the conference she would be willing to contribute $25 towards their registration. She emphasized that it was important to have educated commissioners. Mr. Wiley stated that he could inform the commission of this. She stated that Landmarks required much training and knowledge. d. St. Mary's National Register Nomination - Steven Wiley Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley for an update. Mr. Wiley explained that he received the St. Mary's nomination and due to the length of the document did not include it in the packet but the Commission would have an opportunity to weigh in during the nomination process. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she had asked the state legislators to weigh in in past nomination processes. 9. Agenda Items for Next Meeting (November 111h, 2020: 3 PM in City Hall Room 203) Ms. Brabender Mattox mentioned the 1321 Porter plaque discussion and historic preservation plan. Ms. Stoll Olthoff stated that whomever attended the WHS conference should provide a brief overview of the conference. Mr. Jacklin explained that at a corner of Washington and Bowen a fence was put up and went all the way to the sidewalk. He stated that the fence was an eyesore. He stated that there was another fence halfway down Washington (between Bowen and the lake). He stated that in historic districts Landmarks probably did not want to see fences running right to the sidewalks. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked whether fences in historic districts were required to go through a review board. Mr. Wiley answered that as long as fences were picket fences no more than 4 feet high they usually met the zoning standards and no Plan Commission or Board of Appeals review was necessary. She stated that when something was in an historic district it was not just business as usual. It was possible to destroy the integrity of a neighborhood. 10.Outstanding Issues Ms. Stoll Olthoff asked if anyone knew anything about the Grand Opera House signage. Mr. Wiley answered that the state had some concerns about reversibility and the thru bolt mounting method so there was some back and forth between staff and the state. Staff and the Grand Opera House group had a meeting with the state compliance reviewer. He stated that currently staff was waiting on details and structural calculations before being able to move forward. The state compliance reviewer initially believed that the proposed signage would have an adverse impact on the building but could be willing to change her opinion with more information. She had not made a formal finding yet. Mr. Wiley stated that the City would not approve anything if the state found that it would have an adverse impact. Ms. Allison Aasby stated that she needed to leave for another commitment. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she also had another meeting coming up. Ms. Allison Aasby made a motion to adjourn and Ms. Stoll Olthoff seconded. Meeting adjourned at 4:25 pm (4-0). Recorded by: Steven Wiley, Associate Planner