HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes CITY OF OSHKOSH LANDMARKS COMMISSION
Minutes
July 101',2019
PRESENT: Shirley Brabender Mattox, Paul Arnold, Steve Cummings, Nikki Stoll Olthoff
EXCUSED: Matt Mugerauer, Elizabeth Hintz,Jeremy Galica
ABSENT: None
STAFF AND OTHERS: Steven Wiley, Pam Ubrig(City Clerk), Su van Houwelingen (Oshkosh
Housing Authority),Lee Franzen (Oshkosh Housing Authority), Terry Laib (Laib
Restoration),Julie Johnson(Co-owner Jansen's Bar and Restaurant)
1. Call to Order
Chair Brabender Mattox called the meeting to order at 3:07 p.m. and a quorum was declared present.
2. Approval of June 121h,2019 Meeting Minutes
Ms. Brabender Mattox asked the Commission if there were any revisions for the June meeting minutes.
Ms. Brabender Mattox had a revision for Item b under Commissioner Statements. The last line of this
item stated, "She thanked Ms. Stoll Olthoff and Mr. Arnold for attending the presentation." Ms.
Brabender Mattox asked that the line read, "She thanked Ms. Stoll Olthoff and Mr.Arnold for their
research and contribution for the Acanthus Awards and for attending the presentation." For Item f
under Commissioner Statements, the fourth line read, "Mr. Arnold stated that he and his wife were at
the event on June 1�t and they represented the people who had built their house in 1910." Mr. Arnold
asked that staff clarify in the minutes Dr. Henry W. and Mrs. Emma Morganroth as the people who
built his house. No Commissioners had any other minutes so the Commission voted 4-0 to approve the
minutes with changes (Arnold/Cummings).
3. 907 Washington Avenue Tax Credit Project-Terry Laib -Discussion
Mr. Laib stated that he was working on a restoration of the William Waters house at 907 Washington
Avenue. He showed a copy of the historic resource survey from 1980 and explained that copies of this
survey existed in the Community Development Department and at the Oshkosh Public Library. Mr.Laib
explained that people could see whether the survey determined their properties as eligible for the
National or State Registers. Three categories (pivotal, contributing, and non-contributing) exist for each
property on the survey. The property at 907 Washington Avenue was deemed a "pivotal" structure
along Washington Avenue. Mr. Laib would remove the 1940s porch and restore the porch back to what
it was in the 1870s when Mr.Waters designed the property. Mr.Laib explained the architectural features
of the home. He recommended that property owners visit the WHS website to find tax credit
applications. He stated that work had to follow the Secretary of the Interior's standards. Mr.Laib usually
started with the historic survey, and if a property he would work on was not in the survey,he assumed
it was missed. He would photograph the property himself and send the photos into Madison. Ms.
Johnson asked if this system worked for old businesses. Mr. Laib stated that businesses were more
complicated. Mr. Laib stated that $192,000 reflected all the work the owners were doing to the house
that fell within guidelines. Mr. Laib stated that he was also working on a William Waters building in
Neenah and others in Oshkosh. He was booked through 2023. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that
preservation was one of the best indicators of a healthy economy. She asked Mr. Laib to confirm that the
front porch was coming off at 907 Washington Avenue. Mr. Laib answered affirmatively because the
porch was added. He remarked that he could go up and touch the original outside corner in the porch.
He explained also that he was planning to remove an addition on the rear of the property. He stated that
his intent was to differentiate between his new rear addition and the original house rather than try and
make it identical to the house. Mr. Laib explained that he planned to start the 907 Washington Avenue
project the following week. Mr. Arnold asked Mr. Laib to thank the property owners for undertaking
the work. Mr. Cummings stated that these projects required owners with significant financial abilities
to undertake the work. The Commission thanked Mr.Laib for attending and sharing the proposed work.
4. Potential Mural Downtown-Action
The Commission voted to discuss this item after Items 5 and 8 out of respect for the guests' time. Ms.
Brabender Mattox asked Mr. Wiley if there was anything to review for this item. Mr. Wiley explained
that the owner of Carmel Crisp had a number of conversations with staff about a potential mural
downtown but that she was undecided on what she wanted to propose. Therefore, no mural proposal
was coming before the Commission at this meeting. Mr.Wiley stated that his supervisor,Acting Director
Mark Lyons, had instructed him to place this item on the agenda. Mr. Wiley explained that the
Commission could provide input on the installation of murals Downtown. Ms. Stoll Olthoff mentioned
the provision in the mural ordinance that prohibited treatments that caused damage to historic materials
and stated that the provision was vague. Mr. Cummings asked whether the owner of Carmel Crisp
wanted to do a one-time thing or something permanent. Mr. Wiley stated that this was unclear. Mr.
Arnold asked if she wished to do a mural on another owner's building. Mr. Wiley stated that this was
correct. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she could see doing murals on boards but not directly on
historic building walls. Mr. Cummings stated that 8'x4' plywood could be an option. Mr.Arnold stated
that if it was possible to obtain paint similar to what was used historically, this would help with new
murals.
Ms.Stoll Olthoff had reservations about placing murals on downtown historic structures. Ms.Brabender
Mattox stated that the job of Landmarks was to protect historic structures. She said that parachute canvas
or wood panels were often used in Green Bay. Mr.Wiley asked how costly it was to use parachute canvas
or panels. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that Laura Schley in Green Bay had cost estimates. Ms.
Brabender Mattox stated that no artists were consulted during the ordinance process. Mr. Cummings
was not supportive of painting historic buildings for one-time events and stated that disposable options
existed for these events. Ms.Brabender Mattox stated that she appreciated the fact that Mark Lyons was
willing to let Landmarks weigh in as part of the mural process. Ms. Stoll Olthoff asked if there was a
push for more murals. Mr. Wiley stated that this was correct. Mr. Cummings asked who was pushing
for more murals. Mr. Wiley stated that a number of downtown business owners and the Business
Improvement District wished to see more murals installed. Ms. Stoll Olthoff stated that she forwarded
information from State Historic Preservation Architect Mark Buechel to a business owner she knew. She
explained to the business owner what Mr. Buechel said about painting previously unpainted historic
masonry. Ms. Stoll Olthoff stated that she was supportive of murals and art and that non historic walls
and materials were good locations for murals. Mr. Wiley explained that one concern regarding lime
wash was that few people knew what it was or how to find products or information. Ms. Stoll Olthoff
suggested that staff look at Green Bay's mural ordinance and Mr. Cummings stated that Stevens Point
was another example of a community that was successful with murals. The Commission asked Mr.Wiley
to forward notes from this discussion to Mr. Lyons and Mr. Davis. Mr. Wiley agreed to forward the
material on to senior staff.
5.Jansen's Bar(344 Bowen Street) —Julie Johnson—Discussion
The Commission voted to move this item up to the Item 4 slot out of respect for Ms.Johnson's time. Ms.
Johnson introduced herself and explained that she was co-owner of Jansen's Bar and Restaurant on
Bowen Street. She had talked to a customer at Jansen's about grants for businesses such as hers. She
explained some of the history of the business and that the business was in Mr.Wiley's family many years
ago. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if one could call the building a Queen Anne example. She stated that
she thought of Witzke's. Ms. Johnson stated that the earliest record of someone in her current building
was from 1908. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked if Ms. Johnson has examined the Sanborn Maps. Ms.
Johnson replied affirmatively. Ms. Stoll Olthoff asked when the front windows previously there were
closed off. Ms.Johnson stated that she did not have photographs from between the 1940s and the 1970s.
Ms. Brabender Mattox asked Ms. Johnson what she was proposing to do. Ms. Johnson stated that she
was not sure. Mr. Arnold stated that the cladding material looked like stone or stucco on the first floor,
vinyl on the 2nd. He asked if Ms. Johnson would consider restoring the building back to its 1940s
appearance. Ms. Johnson said that this was a possibility. Mr. Arnold suggested considering the impact
of any potential work or restoration on business operations. He stated that Ms.Johnson could peel back
a bit of vinyl siding to see what siding was beneath. He stated that removing siding would be easier for
vinyl than for stucco.
Ms. Stoll Olthoff asked how old the bar was. Ms.Johnson stated that the bar had a 50's feel to it and Mr.
Cummings stated that the bar was not original. Mr. Cummings suggested that Ms.Johnson could check
and see if there were any images from the church next door. Ms. Johnson stated that she had not yet
gone into the newspaper to see if there was a record of her property being built. She stated that she
wanted to check the land records at the courthouse. Ms. Brabender Mattox replied that research was
important. Ms.Johnson stated that there were not many neighborhood bars left and proposed potentially
landmarking her property. Ms. Brabender Mattox mentioned the WEDC pre-1936 tax credit and Mr.
Wiley explained that it was his understanding that the pre-1936 tax credit was eliminated. Mr.
Cummings stated that the building was likely so altered that it might not qualify for the National
Register. Ms.Brabender Mattox stated that she was interested in local landmarking for the property but
that the Commission also had criteria for doing so. She stated that several of the criteria the Commission
had for local landmarking could apply. Mr. Wiley explained that Community Development Director
Davis was working on an incentive for local landmarking. Ms. Stoll Olthoff asked if Ms. Johnson had
met with Audra Hoy of GO-EDC. Ms. Johnson stated that she had and that Ms. Hoy had provided her
information on the Revolving Loan Fund.
Mr. Cummings stated that there were many corner bars in Oshkosh and asked the other commissioners
what made this one unique. Mr. Arnold stated that the two turrets on the building contributed to the
uniqueness of the property. Ms.Brabender Mattox stated that the building had characteristics of Queen
Anne. Mr.Arnold stated that the dilemma was a lack of funding options for restoring the building back
to its historic state. Ms. Johnson stated that she would do more research. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked
Ms. Johnson to keep the Commission informed and suggested that Ms. Johnson put out a Facebook
message asking for photographs. The Commission thanked Ms. Johnson for attending and she left at
this point.
6. 217 High Avenue-Update
Mr.Wiley explained that no progress was made at the property and that the property owner had received
a citation from Inspections for the peeling paint on the property. Mr. Wiley stated that Lisa Morris had
reached out to him and explained that the owner had decided against going the historic route. The owner
planned to install vinyl siding and wrap up the project. Commissioners expressed their disappointment
in the outcome.
7. Building Permit Review
The Commissioners discussed the list of historic building permits. Mr. Wiley apologized for not
including the building permits in with the packet materials. He explained that he likely saved them in a
separate folder and forgot to print them when trying to get the packets out. He pulled them up on the
screen and explained what work was proposed for each property. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that for
1541 N. Main Street, she followed up with the owner regarding tax credits.
S. 530 N. Main Street Cell Equipment-Update/Action
The Commission moved this item up to discuss after Item 5. Mr. Wiley explained that AT&T and U.S.
Cellular had planned to modernize their cell equipment on the Raulf building downtown. The item came
before the Landmarks Commission in April for review and action. At the time it was staff's and the
Commission's understanding that a number of antennae upgrades would occur in visually prominent
locations on the building. The Commission was strongly against the proposed upgrades and sent a letter
on to the consultants expressing its concerns. EBI Consulting was working with AT&T on AT&T's project
at the Raulf building. Since the consultant and SHPO received the letter from Landmarks, EBI staff
reached out to Mr. Wiley and clarified in writing that their scope of work did not involve any changes
that would be visible from the street or historic districts. All work would occur in the elevator penthouse
or behind the parapet wall. With this the consultant asked Landmarks to review the clarified scope of
work and consider amending the original finding. Ms. van Houwelingen stated that she was initially
confused when the consultants sent the original scope of work. She explained that the cell companies
rented space on the Raulf building from the Housing Authority who owned the building. The income
from the cell companies was a major revenue stream. The Commission voted 4-0 to approve the clarified
scope of work with the understanding that no upgrades would be visible and all work would be within
the elevator penthouse and behind the parapet wall. (Arnold/Cummings)
9. Smith School -Discussion
Ms.Brabender Mattox explained that she had spoken with Barb Herzog,President of the Oshkosh School
Board. Ms.Brabender Mattox stated that from her conversation with Ms.Herzog,the school board could
not afford to maintain schools with less than 300 students enrolled. She stated that she spoke with Ms.
Herzog about the importance of Smith School as an historic school. She stated that she could see the
possibility of tax credits if a developer converted the school into apartments. Mr. Arnold asked if there
was anything on the original deed of note. Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that she did not yet know. Mr.
Arnold asked to keep Smith School on the agenda.
10. Chief Oshkosh-Steve Cummings-Discussion
Mr. Cummings explained that he, Ms. Brabender Mattox,Dennis Zack from UW-Oshkosh and Mr.
Wiley went up to Keshena on Monday,June 1711, and met with Menominee Indian Nation Tribal Leader
Douglas Cox and Tribal Historian David Grignon. The four directions (North, South, East and West)
were culturally significant and discussions had occurred regarding having four signs. The original
draft for Chief Oshkosh signage went back to UW-Oshkosh where Mr. Zack and his group were
working on it. Mr. Cummings stated that the Menominee Nation suggested talking with the Wisconsin
Herd about potentially sponsoring signage. Ms. Stoll Olthoff noted that the current Chief Oshkosh
statue did not look like Chief Oshkosh. Mr. Cummings and Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that this
came up in the discussions with the Menominee Nation. It was proposed that one of the signs might
have an image of Chief Oshkosh as shown in the current write-up.
11. Historic Preservation Plan-Jeremy Galica and Steven Wiley-Update
Mr.Wiley explained that he had not yet had a chance to work more on the plan. Ms. Brabender Mattox
proposed that before the next Landmarks meeting staff and the Commission could look at Green Bay,
Racine and other area communities and set up another workshop. Ms. Brabender Mattox asked what
times worked for Ms. Stoll Olthoff. Ms. Stoll Olthoff stated that any time after 2:30 pm could work.
12. Lakeshore Historic Site -Discussion
Mr. Cummings proposed blocking out time to work out what Landmarks would like to see for the
Lakeshore site. Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that the Parks Department and consultant held a
public meeting on Monday,July 8f and she attended and provided input. She stated that she had
emailed several people at the Wisconsin Historical Society and wanted people to get the word of the
planning process. Mr. Cummings asked if the meeting was well-attended. Mr. Wiley stated that it
seemed that there were more board and commission members in attendance between the three boards
providing input than audience members from the public. Mr. Cummings mentioned the Youth
Council and that the planning team should seek input from teenagers and other youth. Ms. Brabender
Mattox stated that Chip Brown had retired from the WHS and that she expected to hear in the coming
week from archeological and compliance staff. She had asked two times about Landmarks being part
of the July 811,meeting. She stated that she was not sure who had the UWM Cultural Management
report on the site and who knew about the report.
13. Social Media-Discussion/Action
Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that Ms. Stoll Olthoff could send Mr. Wiley pictures through Facebook
and he could post images from the plaque ceremony at 456 Mount Vernon. Mr. Wiley asked for any
Commissioners with ideas or material to post to send these to him and he could post them.
14. Commissioner Statements
a. 404 W. New York Avenue: Local Landmarking-Shirley Brabender Mattox/Rich Green
Ms. Brabender Mattox explained that she would move forward with this.
b. Feedback on Landmarks Website Stats-Steven Wiley
Mr. Wiley shared the Landmarks website stats from the past month. He explained that the
number of page views had decreased from 184 to 141 since May, the number of unique
pageviews had decreased from 132 to 112,but the average time on the page had increased from
1:03 to 1:13.
c. Historic Plaque Presentation-456 Mount Vernon St.-July 91h
Ms. Brabender Mattox stated that Ms. Brown had a celebration of the 1501h anniversary of the
Doe House and the presentation of the historic plaque. Ms. Brown had planned an open house
for August 31yt to celebrate the 1501h anniversary of the house. She stated that she, Mr. Arnold,
Mr. Cummings,Ms. Stoll Olthoff and Mr. Wiley were present and that Ms. Brown was thrilled
with the event.
d. Frontenac Building Update-Steven Wiley
Mr. Wiley explained that the paperwork and images were submitted to the state and that he
and the owner heard back from State Architect Mark Buechel and Mr. Buechel gave him the
approval to move forward but explained the conditions that would have to be met for the
project to receive the tax credits.
e. 303 Washington Avenue (Corbett House) -Discussion-Steve Cummings
Mr. Cummings explained that he did not have any further updates.
13. Agenda Items for Next Meeting(August 141h12019: 3 PM in City Hall Room 203)
Ongoing items such as the Building Permit Review, Historic Preservation Plan, Lakeshore site and
Chief Oshkosh signage would remain on the agenda. Mr. Cummings mentioned that the Winnebago
County Historical Society was planning an event at the Grand for October 27th as part of the 100 year
celebration of the county historical society and the idea was to focus on 21 people that were visionaries
of the county. He stated that the county historical society might publish a book.
14. Adjournment
Mr. Cummings made a motion to adjourn and Ms. Stoll Olthoff seconded. Meeting adjourned at 5:44
pm (4-0).
Recorded by:
Steven Wiley, Assistant Planner